Too powerful? What am I missing... (please help)

[KarinsDad]

70% or more of the creatures hit points in a single wild surge? Can you show me the numbers for this?

Sure.

D6+1 = D8 on average
Most creatures have hit dice * (D8 + CON bonus) hit points
Wilder surges add 1 to 6 to manifester level
The equation becomes:

Wilder Level + (1 to 6) * D6+1 vs Hit Dice * D8+CON

For a creature two hit dice higher than the Wilder (i.e the PC party), to do 70% of the creatures hit points in damage, the CON of the creature would be:

Wilder 1 Surge +1   damage 9     CON 10
Wilder 3 Surge +2   damage 22.5  CON 14
Wilder 7 Surge +3   damage 45    CON 15 (14 does more than 70%, 16 does less than 70%)
Wilder 11 Surge +4  damage 67.5  CON 16
Wilder 15 Surge +5  damage 90    CON 15
Wilder 19 Surge +6  damage 112.5 CON 16

This is for non-classed opponents (i.e. many monsters). Sure, some monsters have higher CONs or even D12 hit dice or whatever, but many have lower CONs. Hence, the reason I used the word "often".

For classed opponents, the table corresponds to Clerics, Druids, and Monks. It would average less than 70% damage on Fighter types, but more than 70% on arcane types and rogues.

But remember, this table is for an opponent two levels higher than the party. For similar or lower level opponents, the percentage increases.

For example, here is a table of the CON of a same level D8 hit point classed opponent (assuming the NPC gets full die hit points at first level) that can be knocked unconcious by the Wilder. Not just 70% damaged, but 100% damaged:

Wilder 1 Surge +1   damage 9     CON 10
Wilder 3 Surge +2   damage 22.5  CON 14
Wilder 7 Surge +3   damage 45    CON 12+
Wilder 11 Surge +4  damage 67.5  CON 12
Wilder 15 Surge +5  damage 90    CON 12-
Wilder 19 Surge +6  damage 112.5 CON 12-

So, for a lot of opponents, the Wilder can often do 70% or more. A Wizard with 4+ more CON than in the table here for same levels will be knocked unconscious on average.

And this is with no metamagic whatsoever.


The OP has legitimate concerns here.

 

[Enforcer]

It because the ability of psionicists to 'pump up' their powers by spending more power points...adding damage dice and raising save DCs. It works really well when your DM overlooks the 'max pp/round=manifester level' rule.

My Fighter really shines when I roll six extra dice on my damage rolls too... The argument that "psions are broken when you don't follow the chief rule to balance them" is pointless.

 

[werk]

I certainly hope that the arguement does not come down to wilders and psions being better at novaing because the player can cheat.

No, I think it comes down to wilders being better at nova-ing because of their surge.

The rule oversight is just a common mistake.

 

[Henry]

Back to Wilders a second: A wilder can indeed "one-shot-kill" some enemies, if he uses both his surge ability and the Overchannel feat (which I believe do stack). However, there are significant drawbacks to it, mostly on the side of being lucky or unlucky with the dice. One fix for the original poster might be to suggest a slight (not a lot, but slight) Power points per level decrease for Wilders (and psions, if you use them). That way, they can have their moment of "nova", but pay for it more harshly, and have it be their ONLY moment of glory for the day. Wilders have a lot in common with Warlocks, in that the entire world will look like a nail for the Wilder's "hammer."

 

[KarinsDad]

It because the ability of psionicists to 'pump up' their powers by spending more power points...adding damage dice and raising save DCs. It works really well when your DM overlooks the 'max pp/round=manifester level' rule.

It works well without overlooking that rule.

 

[KarinsDad]

Back to Wilders a second: A wilder can indeed "one-shot-kill" some enemies, if he uses both his surge ability and the Overchannel feat (which I believe do stack). However, there are significant drawbacks to it, mostly on the side of being lucky or unlucky with the dice.

This would be a more convincing statement if Surge and Overchannel actually did stack. They don't though.

 

[glass]

Wild surge actually increases the manifester level of the wilder for the power that is being surged. So with a base manifester level of 3, +2 from surge, gives a total of 5 for that power.

Does that make the numbers work out?

Yep. Thanks.

I was thinking that Wild Surge only upped manifester level for the purposes of PP, but obviously I was mistaken.


glass.

 

[moritheil]

....

I *think* the term "go nova" means: "Use up most/all of your resources as quickly as possible, usually to devestating effect."

Even a divine metamagic Cleric build can only go through his spells so fast.....

But he can easily burn through all his turns/day in a few rounds. Those constitute his most important resource in terms of direct destruction of the enemy. The difference is that a cleric can still stick around and heal people afterward.

 

[Slaved]

This is for non-classed opponents (i.e. many monsters).

Non-classed opponents often have more hit dice than their challenge rating.

At early levels we have things like the riding dog. This creature has 13 hit points and a touch armor class of 12. A first level wilder who surges and chooses either fire or cold will do an average of 9 points of damage on a hit and with a 14 dexterity will hit 55% of the time.

So with one surge the wilder is doing about 5 damage which will take about 3 shots to take out the dog.

If the wilder does actually hit then a single hit on average is 69% of the dogs total hit points but hitting is not guarenteed.

Plus, once the dog gets up to the wilder on a riding dog versus wilder 1 the dog has a pretty good chance of taking out the wilder in a single hit.

So at this point this seems pretty well in line. The damage on a successful hit is about 70% but the average is far lower and I would expect anyone who is going to be doing damage directly to be doing similar damage at this point.

For classed opponents, the table corresponds to Clerics, Druids, and Monks. It would average less than 70% damage on Fighter types, but more than 70% on arcane types and rogues.

This seems to again assume that a hit is made or the saving throw is failed or whatever other resistances that there could be are inapplicable. Why is this assumed?

But remember, this table is for an opponent two levels higher than the party.

I am away from my books at the moment but arent nonplayer characters 1 lower challenge rating than their levels for things like humans and dwarfs and an extra 1 or 2 points lower if they are only nonplayer character classes?

For example, here is a table of the CON of a same level D8 hit point classed opponent (assuming the NPC gets full die hit points at first level) that can be knocked unconcious by the Wilder. Not just 70% damaged, but 100% damaged:

Wilder 1 Surge +1   damage 9     CON 10
Wilder 3 Surge +2   damage 22.5  CON 14
Wilder 7 Surge +3   damage 45    CON 12+
Wilder 11 Surge +4  damage 67.5  CON 12
Wilder 15 Surge +5  damage 90    CON 12-
Wilder 19 Surge +6  damage 112.5 CON 12-

So, for a lot of opponents, the Wilder can often do 70% or more. A Wizard with 4+ more CON than in the table here for same levels will be knocked unconscious on average.

I would like to note that an 18 strength and a longsword weilded in one hand will be doing almost 9 points of damage on an average hit as well. This might be with a worse chance to hit but with the bonus of being able to do it many more times and without the penalty of possible enervation.

A character with a two handed sword and a 14 strength will be doing 10 points of damage on average per hit.

A rogue with a rapier and who is flanking will be dealing 2d6 plus other bonuses for an average of 7 plus other bonuses.

These are all options at first level as well.

I think that you are ignoring anything that might mitigate the damage being dealt and ignoring the damage potential of other characters.

The OP has legitimate concerns here.

Of course. But are the concerns unique or are they concerns for most of the damage dealers out there?

 

[Slaved]

No, I think it comes down to wilders being better at nova-ing because of their surge.

Is this true? Anyone care to elaborate?

I am not sure why that would be true though. The wild surge itself is not really a limited resource but when it fails you lose a whole lot of resources plus you lose a round of actions. Losing a round of actions seems to go against the whole nova idea.

The rule oversight is just a common mistake.

Yes it is.