Total Concealment? How does this work with Greater Concealing Amorpha?

[Brace Cormaeril]

How does total concealment work, as in the Total Concealment granted by Greater Concealing Amorpha?

From d20SRD:
Concealment

To determine whether your target has concealment from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that provides concealment, the target has concealment.

When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has concealment if his space is entirely within an effect that grants concealment. When making a melee attack against a target that isn’t adjacent to you use the rules for determining concealment from ranged attacks.

In addition, some magical effects provide concealment against all attacks, regardless of whether any intervening concealment exists.
Concealment Miss Chance

Concealment gives the subject of a successful attack a 20% chance that the attacker missed because of the concealment. If the attacker hits, the defender must make a miss chance percentile roll to avoid being struck. Multiple concealment conditions do not stack.
Concealment and Hide Checks

You can use concealment to make a Hide check. Without concealment, you usually need cover to make a Hide check.
Total Concealment

If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).

You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.
Ignoring Concealment

Concealment isn’t always effective. A shadowy area or darkness doesn’t provide any concealment against an opponent with darkvision. Characters with low-light vision can see clearly for a greater distance with the same light source than other characters. Although invisibility provides total concealment, sighted opponents may still make Spot checks to notice the location of an invisible character. An invisible character gains a +20 bonus on Hide checks if moving, or a +40 bonus on Hide checks when not moving (even though opponents can’t see you, they might be able to figure out where you are from other visual clues).
Varying Degrees of Concealment

Certain situations may provide more or less than typical concealment, and modify the miss chance accordingly.

Is GCA simialar to Invisibility, conveying bonuses to attack rolls? If I am adjacent to an opponent, and concealed with GCA, attack and then move, do listen checks apply for discerning my location?
Any clarification woulb be great; thanks alot.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

It is the same as Displacement.

The lower level one is the same as Blur.

 

[Brace Cormaeril]

That makes sense, and nerfs the power, RAW, quite a bit. In my original interpretation, not even thinking about "Displacement", the GCA was sorta' like a cool "Splinter Cell" suit, optic camouflage or something like that. Not nearly as cool, but makes more sense, and easier to deal with, as Total Concealment is obviously not invisibility.
Thanks for your input, Kommando.

 

[irdeggman]

That makes sense, and nerfs the power, RAW, quite a bit. In my original interpretation, not even thinking about "Displacement", the GCA was sorta' like a cool "Splinter Cell" suit, optic camouflage or something like that. Not nearly as cool, but makes more sense, and easier to deal with, as Total Concealment is obviously not invisibility.
Thanks for your input, Kommando.

No it doesn't nerf the power RAW-wise. Only a misinterpretation of what it says.

The power(s) grant concealment and total concealment.

These conditions provide a miss chance and the other things laid out.

Invisibility grants a different set of benefits, one of them is total concealment.

Total concealment does not equal invisibility, but invisibility does equal total concealment (plus).

Benefits of being invisible include denying your opponent their Dex mod and gaining a +2 on attack rolls - neither of which is granted by having total concealment. {That is unless the Rules Compendium changed this, I haven't checked that.}

 

[Brace Cormaeril]

i guess I'm wrong in thinking that if GCA granted concealment, then it would be cooler than the psuedo-concealment GCA seems to offer. For example, could you use GCA to make a hide check in plain sight, since you are not in plain sight, as you are currently benefiting from total concealment? However, total concealment "obviates the need for a hide check, since no one can see you anway". But with GCA, you obviously can be seen, because if it acts like Displacement, then you can be seen 2ft from your actual posistion... it just seems way cooler to be hidden, moving around, stealthing and what have you, than to appear 2ft from your true posistion.
So, if GCA straight up gave you Total Concealment, you'd be real stealthy, but since it gives you psuedo-total concealment, like Displacement, it seems not as cool as Power as one read as "you get total concealment".
Do I got that right?

Thanks

 

[irdeggman]

i guess I'm wrong in thinking that if GCA granted concealment, then it would be cooler than the psuedo-concealment GCA seems to offer. For example, could you use GCA to make a hide check in plain sight, since you are not in plain sight, as you are currently benefiting from total concealment? However, total concealment "obviates the need for a hide check, since no one can see you anway". But with GCA, you obviously can be seen, because if it acts like Displacement, then you can be seen 2ft from your actual posistion... it just seems way cooler to be hidden, moving around, stealthing and what have you, than to appear 2ft from your true posistion.
So, if GCA straight up gave you Total Concealment, you'd be real stealthy, but since it gives you psuedo-total concealment, like Displacement, it seems not as cool as Power as one read as "you get total concealment".
Do I got that right?

Thanks

GCA does not grant displacement - that was a comparison given to you to use to help "picture it".

The difference here is that GCA is not an area effect it only affects you (and not even the entire square you are in) so the opponent knows what square you are in already. So in this context it functions more akin to displacement than being invisible or being in an area that provides total concealment. So this is good concept to use to gain a understanding of what is happening.

And total concealment "usually" alleviates the need for Hide checks, but not always. This would be one of the times that I would rule it needs one (and I'd grant the check bonuses as if the character were Invisible).

 

[Brace Cormaeril]

Ok, I think I'm starting to pull this together. How 'bout this... I'm standing behind a large stone wall, total concealment and the kobold around the corner is unaware or my existence. I manifest GCA, and walk around the end of the wall in front of the kobold. Does he see me? Do I role a hide check as if I were invisible (with the bonus as Hiding while Invisible)?

 

[Someone]

Ok, I think I'm starting to pull this together. How 'bout this... I'm standing behind a large stone wall, total concealment and the kobold around the corner is unaware or my existence. I manifest GCA, and walk around the end of the wall in front of the kobold. Does he see me? Do I role a hide check as if I were invisible (with the bonus as Hiding while Invisible)?

You don't need to roll a Hide check: you're totally concealed by the ectoplasmic membrane, so the goblin can't see you, but he won't fail to notice the membrane itself (in this case the concealing agent). Picture yourself carrying a really big tower shield.

You could however try a Bluff check to pretend to be a giant amoeba.

 

[Nifft]

You don't need to roll a Hide check: you're totally concealed by the ectoplasmic membrane, so the goblin can't see you, but he won't fail to notice the membrane itself (in this case the concealing agent). Picture yourself carrying a really big tower shield.

You could however try a Bluff check to pretend to be a giant amoeba.

QFT. Also, I want Perform (amoeba) added to the skill list.

Cheers, -- N

 

[irdeggman]

You don't need to roll a Hide check: you're totally concealed by the ectoplasmic membrane, so the goblin can't see you, but he won't fail to notice the membrane itself (in this case the concealing agent). Picture yourself carrying a really big tower shield.

Actually nothing says that the goblin can't see you because of the GCA (the wall however is a different matter).

Total concealment does not mean invisible, especially in this case.

The description of the power is that it is:

As concealing amorpha, except the quasi-real membrane so distorts your image and actual position that you gain total concealment (opponents have a 50% miss chance), but for a shorter period of time.

And CA:

Using concealing amorpha, you weave a quasi-real membrane around yourself. You remain visible within the translucent, amorphous enclosure. This distortion grants you concealment (opponents have a 20% miss chance), thanks to the rippling membrane encasing your form. You can pick up or drop objects, easily reaching through the film. Anything you hold is enveloped by the amorpha. Likewise, you can engage in melee, make ranged attacks, and manifest powers without hindrance.

Which is why the "displacement" comparision is pretty accurate, IMO.

You need to be careful here - if you say that he can't be seen or that he doesn't need to make a Hide check (because of this) then per the Rules Compendium - he is treated as invisible to his opponent. Now if you give him a bonus to his Hide check (and he succeeds) then he is treated as invisible. But it is very clear that you know what square a character under the effect of GCA is in - since it distorts his appearance and it is only on him and not the square or any other extended area.


But the comparison of the tower shield and the "amorphia field" seems pretty good too.