Touch attack for Evard's Black Tentacles?

[Ninja-to]

Yep. Nasty, nasty spell. However, I don't know that I'd say this:
Or at least the first part of the statement. Consider that this is also the spell level containing Confusion, Dominate Person, and Enervation. All of which I've seen utterly screw over a party plenty of times as well.

On the other hand, I don't think 7 damage per round is that piddly either.

But with all these, there are saving throws. There's a chance, and that's enough to make a huge huge difference. With Evards, as you can see from that chart, the chances are near impossible for the majority of classes at the same level, with Fighters having the best chance to escape at 34%, and that's if they have near insane Strength scores of 21. And to be honest, the damage isn't the main problem, even though it's very high at 60-100 at 10th level. It's the fact that the creatures are completely immobile and unable to cast spells or return attacks with (barely) no hope. Even being stuck for a minimal 2 or 3 rounds is often more than enough for the wizard casting Evards to finish off whoever's inside the area. Couple Evards with a Fireball (because now the tentacles are 'immune to all damage :\ ) or start throwing touch attack spells (no dex bonus to ac... practically AC 10 for most creatures unless they have DR or Natural AC) and you get the picture...

 

[Testament]

You don't throw touch spells into a Tentacle zone, its still a grapple, so you're likely to hit the tentacles.

When you first get it, its a horrendous spell. Its not great on monsters though after a short time, since you can expect to fight quite a few larges, who can easily make the grapple check.

Although the sorc I play Living Greyhawk with regularly has discovered the wonders of dropping a Tentacles on the enemy, and following that up with Freezing Fog from Complete Arcane. Total frickin' lockdown. Add a Druid casting Murderous Mist on the area and you have our patented "Lobster Puree" recipe.

 

[Ninja-to]

You don't throw touch spells into a Tentacle zone, its still a grapple, so you're likely to hit the tentacles.

When you first get it, its a horrendous spell. Its not great on monsters though after a short time, since you can expect to fight quite a few larges, who can easily make the grapple check.

Although the sorc I play Living Greyhawk with regularly has discovered the wonders of dropping a Tentacles on the enemy, and following that up with Freezing Fog from Complete Arcane. Total frickin' lockdown. Add a Druid casting Murderous Mist on the area and you have our patented "Lobster Puree" recipe.

You can't hit Tentacles with anything. They're immune to all attacks and damage and spells of all kinds.

 

[Thanee]

You can waste attacks on them, tho, i.e. when firing into the grapple, you have a random chance to hit the large tentacle and waste the attack.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nail]

Wow, I see. So, have you kept the spell the same or adapted in light of these stats?

In one of my groups, the players objected strenuously to any change in EBT, regardless of arguements to the contrary. In the other group, I'm usually a player, and my fellow players have access, so....yep, I'm hypocritical.

If I were allowed to change it, I'd probably make the tenacles equivalent to a medium sized creature, rather than large. The rest remains the same. That reduces the spell's grapple check to caster level + 4......which (IMO) is back in the ball-park for a 4th level web equivalent.

Are you a math professor or what? Just curious.

Not any more. Now I get to teach Chemistry, Geology, and Environmental Science. Great stuff!

Incidentally, the % chance stuff I posted uses a brute-force approach and an Excel spreadsheet. It's not that hard.

 

[Nail]

So whats the % when the difference is 13?

If the grappler has a +13 advantage over the defender, the chance for the defender to resist is only 7%.

Ouch.

EBT precipitated a TPK in a game I was in last weekend. Of course it was the one and only night my first ever wizard in 3.5 (or 3.0) didn't prepare dim door And it was coupled with a swarm of bats that also did damage every round.

Hey! I did that too as a DM! Huh.

I hit the players with a EBT, then a swarm of bats, just as your DM did. Crazy. I ruled that the Bat swarm took damage from the EVT, however. It was still around long enough to knock out the Rgr/Wiz/Arcane Archer PC.

(You readin' this thread, DrSpunj? )

Anyway, Dim Door (or equivalent) is the only serious response to EBT....and it's why the 'Tentacles are not as nasty starting level 11 or so. By that time several people in the party (usually, YMMV) have access to such magic.

 

[apesamongus]

You can't hit Tentacles with anything. They're immune to all attacks and damage and spells of all kinds.

Being immune doesn't mean they can't be hit.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

The opposite is also an interpretation (i.e. that you are not immune to future attacks). The spell is just not clearly written.

I'm not sure how much clearer you can get than: "Every creature within the area of the spell must make a grapple check, opposed by the grapple check of the tentacles."

The opposite interpretation seems to hinge on "[t]he tentacles continue to crush the opponent until the spell ends or the opponent escapes." That says nothing about the opponent no longer being subject to the spell. Folks seem to be reading it as if it said, "the tentacles continue to attempt grapple checks against characters until the spell ends or the opponent escapes," and that's an entirely different sentence entirely. (Tom said and opined redundantly.)

Again, I just don't understand how anything can be clearer than "[e]very creature within the area of the spell must make a grapple check."

IMO, black tentacles is definitely overpowered as a fourth-level spell. A fairly simple fix, and one that still makes the spell worthwhile, is to simply set the grapple check equal to caster level.

 

[Abraxas]

When adventuring, you always, always, always have a Dimension Door prepared (unless you had to use it already, of course). Always. Best two or three, depending on level.

If not, you have Teleport, Greater Teleport or Limited Wish prepared.

No exceptions!

We had absolutely no information saying our target was a spell caster. Ever. Even though we were working for the guy that had taken out our target before. I was prepped for throwing lots o damage (empowered magic missiles, empowered scorching rays, empowered manyjaws, firebrand, my own EBT). And, because we had been facing these critters that negate our light sources and screw up low light vision in the process, had switched out Dim Door for Mass Darkvision.

I managed to survive 7 rounds in the thing (and possibly could have outlasted it if the DM or I would have remembered that he has to make a grapple check each round to inflict damage). The EBT killed my mage, the bard, the druid (even after he wildshaped into a polar bear) and the cleric. The rogue escaped because of high ranks in escape artist, as did the monk. The fighter just rolled lucky.

 

[Thanee]

...had switched out Dim Door for Mass Darkvision.

See what it brought you? Never switch out Dimension Door! Never.
Drop one of the stupid damage spells for Mass Darkvision.

The rogue escaped because of high ranks in escape artist, as did the monk.

See (not you, Abraxas)? Rogue with Escape Artist!

The fighter just rolled lucky.

And fighter with a lucky roll!

Bye
Thanee