Touch attack for Evard's Black Tentacles?

[Jeff Wilder]

"Even creatures who aren’t grappling with the tentacles may move through the area at only half normal speed."

If it constantly grapples, you would be hard pressed to move through and not be grappling.

Huh?

If you enter the area (or have escaped), and the tentacles fail to grab you, you're aren't grappling with the tentacles, but you move through the area at half-speed. If the tentacles have grabbed you, but you've made your grapple check to escape, you move through the area at half-speed.

Not hard pressed at all.

"Any creature that enters the area of the spell is immediately attacked by the tentacles."

which could imply (depending on your definition of "enters") that the moment you escape, you are ok. But, if you move 5 foot, you are "immediately" attacked again.

There's no need to infer anything like that. Simply read the language as written: if you enter the area of the spell, you get attacked by the tentacles. Why in the world would anybody contort the language out of its plain meaning, especially to achieve such an unclear and counter-intuitive result?

Due to the power of the spell, I would rule that you get grappled if you are in the area of effect every round on the spell caster's turn and immediately if you enter from outside.

That way, you could grapple an escape as a standard action and still move (for most characters) 10 or 15 feet (i.e. half normal speed). Course, you might still be in it, but ...

That's a good ruling ... it's precisely what the spell says happens.

 

[Nail]

Was I summoned?

A-ha!

But I still don't think it should be drastically changed. I'd buy your switch for the tentacles being Medium instead of Large (thereby reducing the grapple bonus by 4), but I would have been just as hosed being affected by Confusion, Resilient Sphere, Enervation, Phantasmal Killer, etc.

And with Phantasmal Killer, the target is just dead. Still, it's the area part of it combined with the tough check that make it so nasty. Those others you mentioned don't quite have that combination.

(shrug) At any rate, for our last session or two (probably only one), I don't see a need to change it. <que Darth Vader voice> Let those kobold ghasts see the power of EBT!

My good save bonuses aren't all that different from my Grapple check; the EBT's Grapple check is just very tough to beat if the DM rolls anything above poor because of the bonuses Nail outlined so well earlier in the thread. I waited round after to round to roll well while he rolled poorly, as that was the only chance I had of ending the grapple.

....and at the time I was rolling (above board for all to see!) exceptionally well => 4 rounds in a row! Ouch.

your comrades ....(snip).... didn't bother memorizing Dispel Magic.....

Yup, that is a problem.

 

[Nail]

Hello, this a touch attack.

No.

Evard's Black Tentacles is a 4th level Sor/Wiz spell (not 5th level). It requires grapple checks, and these are NOT preceded by a touch attack.

 

[Nail]

Some do. My 10th level rogue has a +23 escape artist check. He fears being grappled or otherwise trapped by spells.

...an exception for every rule.

Actually, having a good Escape Artist check is a Good Idea(tm), especially if your DM likes using Imp. Grab monsters.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Hi there. Is there not a much better solution to the Escape Artist checks? Why would a well-placed but humble Grease spell not serve? I think one could argue that it could effect 10' of the area covered by the tentacles, and not be restricted to a single object.

A first-level counter to a fourth-level spell... as long as you can cast it.

Am I missing something?

Kobold Stew.

 

[dshai527]

Blink has also been known to be handy in the case of EBT. Its a tough spell and one that really gets the players and the Dm thinking and makes for the most interesting battles.

 

[KarinsDad]

Hi there. Is there not a much better solution to the Escape Artist checks? Why would a well-placed but humble Grease spell not serve? I think one could argue that it could effect 10' of the area covered by the tentacles, and not be restricted to a single object.

A first-level counter to a fourth-level spell... as long as you can cast it.

Am I missing something?

Yes. Grease can only affect one object. So, if you have a party of 4 PCs in the Evard's and one of them is a Sorcerer who can Dimension Door out, he would have to a) have the Grease spell and b) cast Grease 3 times, once for the armor/clothes for each of the other 3 PCs.

If you had a Wizard instead, he would have had to study Grease 3 times.

All in all, this is typically only a good tactic if you know Evards will be cast on your group ahead of time.

A Mass Grease spell (if it existed) would be better.

Note: The 10 foot version does not give an improvement to Grapple checks, hence, it could not be used to coat the tentacles to give a bonus to the characters trying to escape from them. This only occurs if you coat the armor or clothing of a character.

 

[KarinsDad]

Huh?

If you enter the area (or have escaped), and the tentacles fail to grab you, you're aren't grappling with the tentacles, but you move through the area at half-speed. If the tentacles have grabbed you, but you've made your grapple check to escape, you move through the area at half-speed.

...

There's no need to infer anything like that. Simply read the language as written: if you enter the area of the spell, you get attacked by the tentacles. Why in the world would anybody contort the language out of its plain meaning, especially to achieve such an unclear and counter-intuitive result?

It is not counter-intuitive. It makes perfect sense that if you enter ANY of the squares of the area of effect, regardless of where you enter from, you are immediately affected. Not just if you enter them from outside the area.

PC: "Ok, I am no longer grappled, hence, I can casually stroll out of the tentacles and am immune to the rest of the tentacles as long as I get out before the spell casters next turn. Hmmm. Which way should I go?".

This is like the Ring of Blades spell that was errata-ed to state that the damage from it only occurs at the end of the spell casters turn. So, if the caster walks past someone with them up, or if someone else walks into their area and stays there, but the caster walks away on his turn, the blades do not affect those characters at all. Huh?

The spell rules should have some consistency with regard to continuous area of effects and they do not.

Btw, I am not stating that this is the interpretation that should be taken, I am merely stating that it is a valid interpretation that someone could make. The wording is not crystal clear. The wording in other spells is better.

For example, Wall of Fire: "The wall deals this damage when it appears and on your turn each round to all creatures in the area. In addition, the wall deals 2d6 points of fire damage +1 point of fire damage per caster level (maximum +20) to any creature passing through it."

Evard's does not explicitly state that it attacks "when it appears and on your turn each round to all creatures in the area". It should explicitly state this, but it does not.

That's a good ruling ... it's precisely what the spell says happens.

Not precisely. It is one interpretation of what the spell states. A good interpretation, but not the only one (read earlier in this thread where Thanee had a different interpretation).

 

[Jeff Wilder]

It is not counter-intuitive. It makes perfect sense that if you enter ANY of the squares of the area of effect, regardless of where you enter from, you are immediately affected. Not just if you enter them from outside the area.

PC: "Ok, I am no longer grappled, hence, I can casually stroll out of the tentacles and am immune to the rest of the tentacles as long as I get out before the spell casters next turn. Hmmm. Which way should I go?".

It's not a matter of "casually strolling out." When not grappling with the tentacles, you move at half-speed. (I thought we'd been over this.) Considering the area-of-effect of black tentacles, if you want to get out of the area, there'd better be nothing casual about how you move.

The spell states that creatures are affected if they "enter the area of the spell." Twisting this to mean "enter any 5' square affected by the spell, even from within the area of the spell" is just that: twisting. It's an invention that doesn't fit what the spell says. What you're describing is "moving within the area of the spell."

This is plain English, and I'm pretty sure you're arguing against it purely for the sake of arguing against it.

Evard's does not explicitly state that it attacks "when it appears and on your turn each round to all creatures in the area". It should explicitly state this, but it does not.

No, but it explicitly states that all creatures within the area, and all creatures that enter the area, are subject to being grappled. The latter has an explicit trigger condition; the former uses the trigger condition common to pretty much all continuing offense spells: it resolves on the caster's turn. (There's no other condition that allows the spell to function properly.) I'm pretty sure this is an explicit general rule, though I don't know exactly where it is.

Btw, I am not stating that this is the interpretation that should be taken, I am merely stating that it is a valid interpretation that someone could make. The wording is not crystal clear.

I'll ask again: what could possibly be more clear than "every creature within the area must make a grapple check" and "any creature that enters the area is immediately attacked"?

The wording in other spells is better. [...] It is one interpretation of what the spell states. A good interpretation, but not the only one (read earlier in this thread where Thanee had a different interpretation).

Anybody can create any interpretation he likes, but there's a difference between an interpretation that follows what the spell explicitly says, and an interpretation that doesn't. The former is valid; the latter is not.

 

[Jack Simth]

No, but it explicitly states that all creatures within the area, and all creatures that enter the area, are subject to being grappled. The latter has an explicit trigger condition; the former uses the trigger condition common to pretty much all continuing offense spells: it resolves on the caster's turn. (There's no other condition that allows the spell to function properly.) I'm pretty sure this is an explicit general rule, though I don't know exactly where it is.

I'll ask again: what could possibly be more clear than "every creature within the area must make a grapple check" and "any creature that enters the area is immediately attacked"?

Anybody can create any interpretation he likes, but there's a difference between an interpretation that follows what the spell explicitly says, and an interpretation that doesn't. The former is valid; the latter is not.

Except that it uses the singular, "a" with no mention of repeats (unlike, CloudKill or Incindiary Cloud which both specify that it is every round for everyone inside (although the save or Die section of cloudkill doesn't say that - just the Con damage section)) - which may very well mean "once", and not once per round. It could also be a simple oversight, and truly mean once per round.