touch of golden ice + lots of dex damage + undead = ?

[TYPO5478]

First, there is not a true contradiction in the rules. Both rules state that the character cannot move.

Let me try this again.

Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.

A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed.

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy.

Undead may be immune to paralysis, but as far as I can tell, they're not immune to being helpless. And since helplessness can be incurred by more than just paralysis, they would still be helpless at Dex 0, paralyzed or not.

And I guess this is where this part of the discussion stops to me. If "immobile and helpless" means the same in-game thing as "paralyzed,"...

They don't; "helpless" and "paralyzed" are two distinct conditions. You can be helpless because you are paralyzed, but being paralyzed is not the only way to become helpless.

 

[KarinsDad]

Let me try this again.

Undead may be immune to paralysis, but as far as I can tell, they're not immune to being helpless. And since helplessness can be incurred by more than just paralysis, they would still be helpless at Dex 0, paralyzed or not.

If the two rules contradicted each other, you would have a valid point. They do not.

One says "cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless".

The other says paralyzed (which is defined as "frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless").


The fact that one defines it as immobile and helpless and the other defines it as paralyzed does not mean a non-paralyzed interpretation is valid.


Note also that the paralyzed definition is under the Ability Damaged section (the specific rule) and the immobile and helpless is under the Ability Score Loss section (the general rule that covers Ability Drained and Ability Damaged). The general rule never takes precedence over the specific rule, hence, Dex 0 = Paralyzed.

The paralyzed definition is also under the Ability Drained section, so now we have two specific rules that state Dex 0 = Paralyzed and one general rule that effectively states Dex 0 = immobile and helpless.

The rules do not support your contention that Dex 0 <> Paralyzed.

 

[TYPO5478]

The quote from above about immunity to ability damage/drain was for creatures without a Con score.

I think it might be a bit over-reaching in its description; I think it might have meant it was immune to ability damage/drain to Con scores, not to anything.

I disagree. If they meant it only applied to Con damage or drain, they would have said so.

This would imply to me that perhaps undead could be affected by ravages that effect a mental score, thus giving a reason to take "extra" damage. But they could not be affected by ravages that effect physical scores, such as this one.

Again, I disagree. If ravages and afflictions were introduced specifically to do ability damage to things that would normally be immune, there's no reason they could damage something that was normally immune to all ability damage but not something that was only immune to physical ability damage. The entry in the Undead type description is redundant.

The rules do not support your contention that Dex 0 <> Paralyzed.

I do not contend that Dex 0 <> paralyzed. I contend that Dex 0 = paralyzed and helpless. Both conditions can (and therefore should) be applied concurrently; i.e. they stack. Undead are immune to being paralyzed. Undead are not immune to being helpless. Reducing an undead creature to Dex 0 will render it both paralyzed (which it is immune to) and helpless (which it is not immune to); therefore the effect will be that the creature is helpless, but not paralyzed.

If more than one condition affects a character, apply them all. If certain effects can’t combine, apply the most severe effect.

Being rendered helpless is more severe for an undead creature than being rendered paralyzed.

The general rule never takes precedence over the specific rule, hence, Dex 0 = Paralyzed.

This would be relevant if the rules were contradictory. As you point out, they are not, so there is no reason for one to take precedence over the other. Both can be applied at the same time.

 

[blargney the second]

That depends on why he has the -2 penalty!

Exactly. It can be the result of a huge variety of effects. It's possible to be wrong if you assume that -2 to attacks means you're shaken.

Just because you can't move doesn't mean you're paralyzed.

 

[KarinsDad]

I do not contend that Dex 0 <> paralyzed. I contend that Dex 0 = paralyzed and helpless. Both conditions can (and therefore should) be applied concurrently; i.e. they stack. Undead are immune to being paralyzed. Undead are not immune to being helpless.

Ok, I now understand where you are coming from.

I think you are reading way too much into it.

Dex 0 = Paralyzed
Dex 0 = Helpless because of paralyzation

Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy.

In this case, the character is helpless because he is paralyzed. Not for any of the other reasons listed. Since Undead are immune to being paralyzed, they are immune to being helpless due to Dex = 0.


One has to look at the intent of the rules and not just one specific literal interpretation.

I really do understand how you are getting this Dex 0 = Helpless (i.e. from the Ability Score Loss rule), but I really think that is a semantical end around of designer intent. The designers explicitly stated that Dex 0 = Paralyzed and Paralyzed = Helpless. I think that ABS general rule is just not specific enough to be clear.

The designers did not want Undead to be helpless due to paralyzation and that is what your interpretation is doing.

 

[blargney the second]

The designers did not want Undead to be helpless due to paralyzation

Where did you get that from?

 

[KarinsDad]

Where did you get that from?

From the fact that Undead are immune to paralyzation.

The designers might have wanted Undead to be helpless due to other reasons (such as being bound), but they explicitly did not want them to be helpless due to paralyzation.

 

[blargney the second]

So then Duergar are not affected by having Str or Dex 0? That's wonky.

 

[Elethiomel]

And Freedom of Action renders you immune to being helpless from 0 DEX. I'm with the "0 DEX = paralyzation regardless of immunity" interpretation.

 

[moritheil]

The fact that one defines it as immobile and helpless and the other defines it as paralyzed does not mean a non-paralyzed interpretation is valid.

Wouldn't it mean that the paralyzed and helpless interpretations are equally valid, absent something that causes one section of text to take precedence?