D&D 4E Towards a Story Now 4e

[AbdulAlhazred]

Designing the Martial Techniques is bringng home the interchangeability of things... ie your generic boon idea.

Yeah, its hard not to think of those as things that I would make into feats in 4e. At least they are blurring the lines a good bit. I think that was one of the things which convinced WotC not to push the idea. Not that it was bad, but it was hard to come up with a rule for contributors that said what was a feat and what was a practice.

Luckily HoML doesn't have that issue...

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Boons

Boons are attributes which characters have or which they gain by virtue of their race, class, level, and/or story. They may be rewards earned through adventuring, such as ancient magical treasures, they may represent knowledge gained by the character in the course of pursuing her career, or they may be things acquired by the character as a result of exposure to mystical forces beyond human ken.
Every character has various boons. Each boon is an attribute of the character which modifies the character in some way. Some may alter the values of other attributes, others may allow the character to do entirely new things that are not normally possible. Lists of possible boons are provided in various places. Each race has racial boons which a character may acquire. Each class has class boons which characters of that class may acquire. In addition there are items, spells, etc., all of which are boons. The Game Master generally assigns most boons, but players may have a choice of boons granted by class, race, and other player selected options.
The higher level the character is the more potent their boons may become. Some boons don't change with level (a permanent bonus for instance is equally valuable at all levels), but others such as the damage dealt by an attack might increase with each level to keep pace with the challenges the character faces. In many cases these boons grant powers, which are discussed separately in their own section.
Major and Minor Boons

Some boons are minor, they are things that help a character but are not critical to the definition of the character. Minor boons might include money, minor magical equipment, potions or other consumables which can be used only once, a small trick or minor ability the character has, etc. Major boons are character-defining benefits which represent significant increases to the power of a character and help to shape the character's story and identity in the game. A major boon might be a powerful magical sword, a spell which grants mastery of fire, or the ability to blend into shadows and vanish from ordinary men's sight. The status of a particular boon MAY be situational. A character who's life goal is to establish a kingdom and rule the known world might find the title to a strong fortress to be a major boon. A character who's goal is to discover all the true names of the things in the world might not find ownership of a fortress to be a defining part of her story.
In general when a PC receives a major boon the character is also increased in level by one and gains the benefits of her new level as soon as the GM decides it is appropriate (such as when the party reaches the next scene or returns to a safe haven). Receiving a minor boon has no effect on the character's level, but most PCs should receive one to three such boons per level, depending on their exact nature and value. For example a PC might easily find a potion, a modestly valuable gem, and a map of the local area. Another character might receive a more substantial amount of cash, and a third character might find a suit of expensive armor which fits him particularly well. All of these might represent minor boons appropriate to a PC over the course of a level, however the GM has complete freedom in parceling out such things.
Limitations

Similarly to boons each character may have limitations. Whereas boons primarily define additional or enhanced capabilities of a character, or give it extra resources, limitations put restrictions on what a character can do. For instance a halfling would have the 'small' limitation. This means the character has a more limited ability to use large weapons and carry heavy loads. Unlike boons however each limitation can also work in favor of the character. Thus the halfling's small size may prevent him from using a 2-handed sword, but it also allows him to squeeze into small areas and avoid disadvantage in places with very low ceilings.
The reason limitations are designed this way is simple. If they were provided simply as disadvantages with no corresponding advantage they would simply punish whomever had them. If players were allowed to gain boons to cancel out the negative aspects of limitations then there would be constant temptation to 'min/max' and game the system. Instead limitations are assigned whenever and however is appropriate as a whole package. They may still on average benefit or hamper a character more than not, but on the whole they are less subject to being gamed.
Curses

Curses are a form of limitation which is generally imposed on a character by the GM for a story reason. These might be a genuine curse, or a terrible disease, or possibly a malign magical item which the character is unable to get rid of. In general these sorts of limitations can be cured and are at least somewhat temporary. In some cases curing them may be difficult, but it is possible to remove almost any curse except the very most terrible ones, which are only earned in response to terrible crimes or circumstances. In a simple case a curse might just grant disadvantage, or produce some other similar effect under some conditions, more complicated cases are normally treated as afflictions (see below).
Afflictions


Name: Sample Affliction
Description: This is a nasty one!
Keywords: Disease
Check: Constitution
Frequency: 10 minutes
Stage 1- DV 10: You got it now, lose one Vitality Point.
Stage 2- DV 10: Lose one Vitality Point and you are Dazed.
Stage 3- DV 12: Lose one Vitality Point and you are incapacitated.
An affliction is a type of curse, condition, wound, or disease which can progress through various stages. This could also represent something like a long-acting poison. Each affliction has 2 or more stages, and each stage has a recovery DV. If a character succeeds at the recovery check then they move to the next lower stage of the affliction. If a character's check result is a critical failure then the character's affliction worsens and they move to the next higher stage. The final stage of an affliction often inflicts some permanent Limitation on a character, or possibly even something worse, like death. Each affliction has a standardized description as shown here. Note that unless stated otherwise the effects of an affliction are cumulative. That is if you have stage 3 you also suffer from the consequences of stages 1 and 2. The frequency attribute of the affliction indicates how often a recovery check is required, it may vary anywhere from once per combat round on up to once a month. Many afflictions have daily frequency, which is typical of a wide variety of diseases, poisons tend to act more quickly, and some curses may only require a check once a month or even less often.
Treatment- Afflictions vary greatly in their treatment. A poison might have an antidote or it could be cured by application of a specific ritual, Cure Poison. Unless the affliction provides specific rules its keywords define the general categories of things which will cure it. Most treatments, when applied, reduce the severity of the affliction by one stage. If a character is attended by someone with the Heal skill this person can assist the character (see the helping rules) using a Heal check at the same DV as the recovery check DV. Success in this check grants the character advantage on her recovery check roll.
Some afflictions may provide slightly different procedures. A given affliction may behave in ways substantially different from that given here, but the general concept is always the same.
Boon Description

Boons vary widely in their content, but they are all described in a roughly similar fashion.
Name: This is the name of the boon.
Association: If this boon is associated with a class, race, background, or some other game element then this is noted.
Prerequisites: In a few cases a boon may have preconditions which must be met before the character is able to acquire the boon.
Level: The boon's level indicates the approximate minimum level where the boon is usually granted to a player character or NPC opponent.
Type: This is either Major, Minor, or Limitation.
Description: This is a general narrative description of what the boon represents. It may contain as much background information as is required to put the boon into story context.
Benefits: This describes the actual mechanical benefits of the boon. This usually includes some sort of power, bonus, proficiency, etc. Some boons may have several benefits. Some may require the player to choose between various options.
Disadvantages: Limitations have this section, which describes the negative aspects of the Limitation.

Example Boon


[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #008000"]

Example Boon​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #008000"]

Level: 1 Major​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]

Association: Rabbits​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]

Prerequisites: None​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%, colspan: 2"] Description: This is the narrative description of the boon. It explains what the boon is in story terms, what it does and how it can be acquired.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%, colspan: 2"] Benefits: This explains the benefits of the boon, including any power choices it grants and/or any attributes a character acquires by having the boon.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%, colspan: 2"] Disadvantages: If this is a Limitation then any disadvantages will be discussed here, including any attributes which the character may acquire by having the limitation.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


This format is useful for general boons, ones that aren't of a more specific type. There may be some categories of boons which have different formats, and some things may be boons in some contexts but not in others, like ritual formulas which don't specifically follow this format at all.

Boon Acquisition

There are many ways in which boons might be acquired. Some of these possibilities are under the control of players, and some are the province of the GM. There is no exhaustive or definitive list of these ways. GMs should simply award boons when the character's circumstances make it narratively appropriate. Some possibilities might include:

• Treasure: the boon is an item, or is granted as a consequence of acquiring an item. Magic items are the usual form this takes, but it is possible the boon isn't the item itself, it could be an effect of acquiring an item, or of just handling it.
• Training: a character may spend some period of time mastering skills, knowledge, and/or techniques which grant the boon. This may take substantial time, or it may happen reasonably quickly depending on the situation and the nature of the boon.
• Imbuement: a character may become imbued with a boon. That is the character's nature may be altered or enhanced in some way. Exposure to magical forces, for example, might result in a character gaining some sort of ability. This could happen fairly quickly, though it may also take some time for such a change to set in, or for the character to master his new power.
• Grant: greater powers, gods etc., may grant a character access to some of their power, allowing the character access to some new boon. This kind of acquisition is often quite sudden, although characters may still need to master what they have been gifted.
• Manifestation: a character may simply find that he or she has some kind of heritage or gift that was not previously known or understood, or an existing boon or other attribute may be mastered or increase in power so that a new boon is acquired. This is often a long process and may involve a significant part of the character's backstory.

OK, I don't know if anyone will READ that wall of text, lol. The TL;DR is

1. Boons are things characters gain or have, attributes of the character which aren't automatically present like hit points or strength.
2. Boons can scale in effect with level.
3. Some boons are major, some are minor.
4. Major boons increase the character's level. Each time you get one, you level up one level.
5. Minor boons don't increase the character's level. There's no specific definitive number of these that characters have, they are just stuff which isn't definitive of the character. Consumables, money, etc. are generally minor boons.
6. Limitations are 'anti-boons'. They always produce some sort of disadvantage for the character, but they may also help in some situations. (as an aside, there's no rule I made about whether a Limitation could serve to advance a character a level, but I think it can count as a 'major boon'. Something like lycanthropy might qualify).
7. Curses are a subtype of limitation. There aren't any curse specific rules, except "curses usually have a cure."
8. Afflictions are curses which use basically the old 4e disease track. They include wounds, diseases, poison, etc.
9. Boons could be acquired as treasure, training, imbuement, grant, or manifestation. This isn't a definitive list, and the 'form' of the boon doesn't affect its mechanics.
   

 

[Garthanos]

Yeah, its hard not to think of those as things that I would make into feats in 4e. At least they are blurring the lines a good bit. I think that was one of the things which convinced WotC not to push the idea. Not that it was bad, but it was hard to come up with a rule for contributors that said what was a feat and what was a practice.

Luckily HoML doesn't have that issue...

To tell you the truth It all reminds me of somethings Gygax suggested about Spells being a Wizards magic Item treasure and how the Fighter +++ from 1e era who was considered a Warrior in 2e, ie the Paladins had Boons AND a limit on magic items. The connection has been there forever.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Skills & Proficiencies


All characters are good at certain things. These are things that the character is said to be proficient at. There are a number of skills which a character may have proficiency with, as well as weapons and other tools. In addition characters may have knowledge in various areas which could be useful.

[TABLE="width: 50%"]
[TR]
[TH="width: 93, bgcolor: #944794"]Skill
[/TH]
[TH="width: 147, bgcolor: #944794"]Primary Ability
[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 93, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]

Acrobatics​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 147, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]DEX[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 93, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]

Arcana​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 147, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]INT[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 93, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]

Athletics​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 147, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]STR[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 93, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]

Bluff​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 147, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]CHA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 93, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]

Diplomacy​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 147, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]CHA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 93, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]

Engineering​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 147, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]INT[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 93, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]

Heal​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 147, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]WIS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 93, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]

History​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 147, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]INT[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 93, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]

Insight​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 147, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]WIS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 93, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]

Intimidation​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 147, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]CHA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 93, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]

Leadership
​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 147, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]CHA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 93, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]

Nature​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 147, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]WIS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 93, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]

Perception​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 147, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]WIS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 93, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]

Religion​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 147, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]INT[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 93, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]

Stealth​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 147, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]DEX
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 93, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]

Streetwise​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 147, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]CHA
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 93, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]

Survival​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 147, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]CON[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 93, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]

Thievery​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 147, bgcolor: #cfe7f5"]DEX[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Skills


A skill represents an area of endeavor or proficiency. Many skills are 'knacks', for instance a character proficient in the Athletics skill is particularly good at athletic feats and will probably naturally prefer to use them to solve problems.
Others might best be seen as talents a character possesses and associated knowledge and expertise. Again, these are things a character might naturally prefer to use in problem solving.

Having a skill may also imply a certain amount of general knowledge which goes with it. For instance a character with proficiency in the Streetwise skill knows facts about towns and their back streets and is at home navigating them.
Proficiency

If a character is trained in a skill then the character has proficiency with this skill and gets the +5 proficiency bonus to all checks using this skill. Any character may attempt to use any skill, but some have natural aptitude, training, or experience which gives them an edge. Some powers may require proficiency with a given skill. The character must have proficiency in the relevant skill to attempt that check.
Proficiency is also an indication of the types of activities which a character is familiar with and will achieve good results with. When characters are outside of conflict situations they may use their skills and will generally be successful at the things they are good at. Thus a Wizard might research a new type of ritual he wishes to develop. His knowledge of Arcana is likely to allow him to succeed.
Skill Powers

Some skills also have basic powers associated with them. These are basic powers which any character may attempt to use. Naturally, being proficient with the skill will make these easier to use effectively.

Descriptions

All of the above skills are described here. The situations in which proficiency in this skill may typically be applied to checks are discussed, along with typical DVs associated with those checks and additional situations which may modify them. Powers associated with the skill are then described.

4e's skill system is pretty much fine. I did note that there were a couple of rather obvious things missing. Leadership and Engineering being the obvious additions. I got rid of 'dungeoneering' as being rather D&D-specific. In any case we often used it to stand in for an Engineering skill, so that seemed like a decent tweak.

In any case, as I've propounded in discussions of 4e skills, these are meant to be something a bit more like Fate Accelerated's approaches, but in a more concrete form. Between a character's ability scores and skill check bonuses it becomes fairly easy to determine what their characteristic approaches to problem-solving are.

Note however that in the context of HoML all sorts of checks, which are going to be mostly skill checks in all likelihood, take on a slightly different aspect than in 4e. All 'scenes' are either challenges in-and-of-themselves, or they form some element of an ongoing challenge. There is no such thing as a simple check unassociated with any challenge, unless the situation is an action sequence (combat mostly) where the detailed action rules govern the progress of the scene.

All checks are part of the success/failure tally system of the general challenge mechanics. While there is a success and failure associated with each individual check, the really significant strategic success/fail determinations will be for overall challenges (IE 3 fails and you take the 'failed' branch of the story). This means that skill checks themselves are more involved in steering the immediate narrative within a scene. For this reason they partake of the general 4 levels of result check mechanism, critical failure, failure, success, and complete success. This gives the GM some pretty strong support in terms of deciding what happens and how it drives the story forward.

Another thing to note with HoML is the role of Practices. Practices are not fundamentally a set of almost skill-like things. Instead they server two purposes within this structure. First they are little mini-narratives which players can invoke in order to take control of which skills are going to be engaged. For example: the wizard comes to a locked door. Not desiring to engage in a bout of lock-picking for which he's ill-suited, he chooses to alter the narrative into a story of how he uses his Undo ritual to make an arcana check to open the lock. This illustrates the 'substitute a different skill' effect of practices. The other aspect is their 'bypass a check' function, which can be engaged by paying any 'boost' price. In that case the wizard simply expends a Vitality Point (some life force) and the door AUTOMATICALLY opens, presumably leading to a success being tallied in the current ongoing challenge.

The boost aspect of practices illustrates the 'up the ante' mechanism of HoML in action. When it REALLY matters to a character to pass a skill check, then she will! It will just come with a price. Players will have to pick and choose what 'really matters' in a given situation, since they won't have limitless VPs to burn. A player could also leverage a character trait and Inspiration to invoke a "the door is simply not locked" scenario (this might work for a character with the trait 'lucky' for example), or some other equivalent narrative that would relate to some other trait. Other character attributes may be called out as well, such as an unusually high ability score, a background element, or a boon.

Inspiration and boost overlap to a certain extent, but they serve slightly different purposes. One aligns play to the character's traits, the other to its skills or 'knacks'. To the extent that these are all part of a holistic character design concept they will all contribute to the narrative realization of that concept in play.

 

[Garthanos]

I considered a skill like streetwise but set for the arena of the high classes. Called it Noblesse. Most things one might accomplish in a city mingling with the common and low folk would require a distinctly different tact among the ruling classes. I didnt want to use diplomacy because diplomacy feels more about bridging gaps between.

I want more clarity on your new skills like Leadership

And elaboration on skill powers please

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I considered a skill like streetwise but set for the arena of the high classes. Called it Noblesse. Most things one might accomplish in a city mingling with the common and low folk would require a distinctly different tact among the ruling classes. I didnt want to use diplomacy because diplomacy feels more about bridging gaps between.

I want more clarity on your new skills like Leadership

And elaboration on skill powers please

Leadership is basically there to provide for situations where you want people to FOLLOW ORDERS or for situations where you would ask "what is the best way to motivate these guys" or something like that. In 4e Diplomacy sort of got drafted to be an ersatz leadership, but the two things are very different. Someone who's diplomatic is not particularly adept at leading. They represent two distinct approaches to solving problems.

I've thought about the whole 'Nobility' thing, but it fails the test of 'is this an approach to problem solving'. Now, some other 4e skills might also be questionable on this score, such as History, which might be best replaced with a general 'scholarship', but then how does that differentiate from Arcana? I didn't really want to get rid of Arcana, because it is after all highly thematic for a fantasy game to have a 'solves problems with magic' kind of a thing. So I kept history, though it is often purposed towards 'general knowledge' in play, so it is a weaker skill. Anyway, Nobility didn't seem to pass the test. Streetwise IMHO can carry the load, it represents someone who 'knows how to get things done'. If your character has a background as nobility and is wealthy, then it probably means he knows the back channels of the upper class more than the dirty back alleys of town. Remember, in this game GMs frame scenes, so you don't always have to make that kind of distinction in each and every character element.

As for 'Skill Powers', well.... In my early versions of HoML, which were much more of just a reworking of problematic mechanics in 4e, skill powers were pretty much what they are in 4e. However, things have evolved past that point now. At some point I created a system for powers that was a bit different from 4e in certain details:

Powers basically are of several types, Basic (everyone can try to use this power), Utility (if you have a boon which grants this power you can use it, no slots exist for utilities in HoML), or Classified (powers which are granted by a boon/class/power source and require being allocated to a slot, which makes them attack powers by definition). Furthermore the addition of Practices (procedures and rituals) in their current HoML form eroded the need/logic for a lot of the old skill powers as such. Some became Basic powers that are just associated with a given skill (IE swimming, climbing, jumping, etc. can be done by anyone at any time, but they do group with Athletics). Others became Utility powers granted through a specific boon (IE Master Tracker grants some tracking related powers). Some simply got replaced with procedures. There are a few cases where it might be logical for any old person to try something, in which case 'page 42' is always there to help you.

I guess the long and short of it is that, as of the latest revision to the rules, there really isn't anything classified directly as a 'skill power' anymore. The category technically still exists, but I'm not sure what exactly would really fall into that bin nowadays. Anything that would require training can be simply made into a boon.

 

[Garthanos]

I've thought about the whole 'Nobility' thing, but it fails the test of 'is this an approach to problem solving'.

You just went with generalizing streetwise as a sosh thing you can streetwise farmers and mercantiles and kings eh. Just as the Athletics is generalized mobility thing (usually insert annoying dex based athletics calle acrobatics)

Why not have acrobatics be a practice making athletics checks based on dex.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

You just went with generalizing streetwise as a sosh thing you can streetwise farmers and mercantiles and kings eh. Just as the Athletics is generalized mobility thing (usually insert annoying dex based athletics calle acrobatics)

Why not have acrobatics be a practice making athletics checks based on dex.

Well, one reason is it seems weird to me to have Athletics, strength based, and then the 'speed and coordination' based task solving guy being a practice. It feels like DEX is being relegated to a secondary place. I admit, the 4e solution of Athletics covering basically all 'athletic things' kind of overrates strength as almost being the primary physical ability score, but it seems to me that eliminating Acrobatics (and why not do away with Endurance as well then) does nothing to redress that imbalance.

I'd be open to other solutions I guess, but its hard to find any that seem really workable. I can't think of other terms for those two skills that make good sense (I did name Endurance 'Survival' to give it a bit wider applicability, though one might argue that CON being the basis for survival knowledge isn't great, and Nature kind of already had that mission in 4e). Unfortunately most things which you can think of to do which are 'physical' tend to be easiest to associate with Athletics, so Acrobatics does come off as a bit of a poor stepchild.

I think the answer is more to just give DEX a lot of stuff to do and make up some cool powers and practices for Acrobatics to work with. Also, GMs kinda just have to frame scenes well. If there's a really acrobatic character, then gosh darn it they need to be able to leverage that!

 

[Garthanos]

Unfortunately most things which you can think of to do which are 'physical' tend to be easiest to associate with Athletics, so Acrobatics does come off as a bit of a poor stepchild.

Its tough I grant...

No matter what the activity Power and Speed are realistically both tied to Strength
and Persistence is tied to Endurance (Con)

Swimming
Climbing
Running
Jumping

One might argue Skill and Dex Both are used to overcome hardships associated with each of the mobilities

Jumping while running is a difficulty factor very much as dangerous and difficult terrains could be seen that way

Swimming has a core difficulty because we arent aquatic and perhaps its always a factor and heavily affects moderate range stamina.

Balancing on a small precipice is arguably still running with a terrain so difficult skill and dex over whelm the value of strength even if it is involved.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Its tough I grant...

No matter what the activity Power and Speed are realistically both tied to Strength
and Persistence is tied to Endurance (Con)

Swimming
Climbing
Running
Jumping

One might argue Skill and Dex Both are used to overcome hardships associated with each of the mobilities

Jumping while running is a difficulty factor very much as dangerous and difficult terrains could be seen that way

Swimming has a core difficulty because we arent aquatic and perhaps its always a factor and heavily affects moderate range stamina.

Balancing on a small precipice is arguably still running with a terrain so difficult skill and dex over whelm the value of strength even if it is involved.

I look at it this way. Players have a lot of freedom in HoML to decide how they're approaching the fictional challenges, including Inspiration and Practices, plus 'page 42' style improvisation. If a PC has Acrobatics trained, then the player is going to leverage that and describe some sort of narrative where the character overcomes her obstacle using speed and coordination instead of either fitness or strength. There's also still such things as 'secondary checks' and 'aid another' which can factor in as well. I think its EASIER to lean of Athletics, and maybe most characters don't need both skills trained, but I don't really feel like I must 'fix' this. In fact, where in 4e the fact that many skills were relegated to fairly niche uses was a bit problematic, I think it is a lot less so in Story Now kind of play.

I wonder what [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION], and [MENTION=81242]Lost Soul[/MENTION] think about that? How about you [MENTION=2093]Gilladian[/MENTION]?