D&D 5E Toxicity in the Fandom

[Umbran]

And then it amplifies those voices, creating the effect that those people think that their voices are more common that they are. Third, it rewards people for being even more horrid than they would otherwise be.

The bias generated by "visibility by engagement" is hefty. Even here, on EN World, where the only algorithm is "things that have gotten posts go to the top", sees the effect. Folks end up thinking that arguments that get lots of traffic are important, or common, when more broadly they aren't a thing.

 

[John R Davis]

Well, here's the thing.

First, .01% is generous.

Second, the major deleterious effect of social media is that it allows horrid people to easily find each other. And then it amplifies those voices, creating the effect that those people think that their voices are more common that they are. Third, it rewards people for being even more horrid than they would otherwise be. Finally, it normalizes the voicing of those horrid opinions, causing others who might otherwise not be so horrid to become more horrid.

I am less sanguine than you are.

Yep. Very generous.
Social media has allowed those who are vile, miserable, depressed, cruel, depraved etc to find like minded souls. This means they are not alone.
Some of those are fans of the same stuff we are. They express it in unpleasant ways.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Yep.

Thing is, the community is made up of people. Humans. And humans are still basically apes with smartphones. All the nastiness, but with added intelligence. RPGs do not especially select those things out, so, we get them in the usual measure.

My wife is a gamer. She also reads a couple different Fiber Arts communities (groups about knitting and crocheting, f'rex). And she sees the same toxicity there. Toxic knitters. What more is there to say?

what on earth is there to be toxic about in knitting?

I think part of what lets this website do well beyond moderation is that we have not all formed into factions depending on the topic I will side with different people and that seems the case with more or less all of us.

 

[nevin]

I hear you, my guy. Really, I do. As western culture in seems to have the cultural temperature rising, I've had to set hard limits on my own usage of the internet. Facebook got cut out years ago, and I've had to prune out Reddit this year as well. EnWorld is one of the last places I am still using online, but even watching the kind of discourse that comes out here, on a decently moderated forum, is enough to really put a damper on the spirits. Whether it's racial modifiers, available classes, rules interpretations, races available at the table, takes on lore being somehow deficient, one-true-wayism, "why won't WotC think about X" where X is literally anything from people who like B/X to people who want crunchier rules (sometimes both arguments come from the same posters, which is wild to me!)...

I've had to block a few people with who I would continuously get into disagreements or just really disliked the way they would argue about things with others. You know, the perpetually unhappy, for which everything done to the game in the past 25 years has just been the worst thing ever. And while it's helped a good amount, sometimes I think I might have to stop coming here too, because there's just SO MUCH negativity around this game, it seems.

yeah, but it's not just gaming, it's everything.

 

[Umbran]

what on earth is there to be toxic about in knitting?

Well, what on Earth is there to be toxic about in pretending to be dragon-slaying elves?

Imagine, if you will, someone comes into the community with a cool new pattern for a pride-flag afghan blanket...

One community had a complete schism a few years ago - after certain real world events, there was a lot of political crap-talk. The admins decided that, from that time forward, there'd be no politics allowed at all. A chunk of the community left because they wanted to be able to crap-talk politics.

In general - humans are tribal creatures. We create In Groups and Out Groups. Any community that defines itself around something (like knitting, or gaming, or whatever) is creating an in-group around that thing, and folks who aren't of that thing are Out. And we deride those who are Out.

One time, at a sci-fi con, my wife went to a crafting circle, and was told, "Honey, we're sorry, but you'll have to go somewhere else. This is a knitting circle. We are knitters. And you crochet..."

Toxicity isn't about the subject matter. It is about the attitude.

 

[James Gasik]

I'm simultaneously appalled and yet somehow, made to laugh by the thought of toxicity in the knitting community. I guess it's literally just everywhere if you choose to look for it. I think I prefer being ignorant.

As for engaging these people? No thanks, I saw the responses made to people who engaged with them. It's the kind of thing that makes me very happy with ENWorld's moderation.

 

[Cruentus]

Back when we played in the 80’s (dons old head hat), WE WERE the only group we knew playing DnD. WE were the community. The only others we knew about in ”the community“ were people who wrote into Dragon Magazine. We didn’t do conventions, the internet was but a wee thing.

”The Community” is now as large as you want it to be, and where you choose to engage with it. I could happily continue to game with my same small group (going on longer than 40 years) with zero to no influence from the outside world if I chose to (no one but me follows DnD news, or even frequents forums).

The ease with which to find content, groups, opinions, etc. online now is super easy, and you take the good with the bad. I very often end up walking away from various fora and blogs because its too stressful (I’m also a Warhammer 40k/GW player, and that’s a whole other ball of wax). I don’t need stress in my gaming, other than what comes up in the adventures.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Well, what on Earth is there to be toxic about in pretending to be dragon-slaying elves?

Imagine, if you will, someone comes into the community with a cool new pattern for a pride-flag afghan blanket...

I see your point, seems irrational to hate it but that is not the point.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

what on earth is there to be toxic about in knitting?

Well, what on Earth is there to be toxic about in pretending to be dragon-slaying elves?

Imagine, if you will, someone comes into the community with a cool new pattern for a pride-flag afghan blanket...

Oh, I'm dead certain we could come up with things to be toxic about regarding knitting.

Correct techniques ("You can't do that! It will unravel!" "Not if I use my BRAIN and make sure to tie it off at the end!" "That's not stable, no end-knot is!" etc.)
Correct styles (color, pattern, type of finished product, etc.)
Correct tools (whether to use independent needles or the ones that have a wire or tube connecting the ends, for example)
Correct materials ("I'd never use synthetic yarn, it can't match the feel and quality of natural fiber" "Well SOME of us aren't bougie fat cats, and have to be practical about our yarn." "Pfeh! As if anyone who doesn't care enough to use REAL yarn is actually knitting!")

Etc., etc., etc. It is easy for difference to lead to judgment, and for judgment to lead to anger for both parties.

 

[BookTenTiger]

I'm very careful about what online (and in-person) communities I participate in. When I see a culture of toxic behavior, I just leave or don't read. Otherwise I find that it has a strong negative influence on my mental health. I'll invest way too much emotional energy in the opinions of others.

This conversation reminds me of a recent story on This American Life. A woman was feeling bored, so decided to pull a silly little prank. She made a "cat found" poster, but instead of a picture of a cat she put on a picture of an opossum. On the poster she said she had found this cat, and to call her if you were the owner.

She got a lot of calls, which really surprised her. Overall, 90% of the calls were actually people trying to help her out- mostly people (kindly) telling her that she was mistaken, and worried that the possum could hurt her. 5% of the calls were people adding to the joke, claiming that the possum was their cat. And 5% of the calls were jerks, telling her she was stupid for thinking the opossum was the cat.

She said that the experience actually really reaffirmed her belief in humanity. It showed, to her, that 9/10 people are basically good. You have your jerks out there, but most people aren't them.

When I read toxic posts in my communities, I try to remind myself that it's a representative of a minority, not the majority.