D&D 5E Toxicity in the Fandom

[Smackpixi]

How does one apologize for unforgivable things? How does one pay debts that can never be repaid?

 

[gnarlygninja]

I think the most toxic part of the fandom is the way some seek the worse interpretation possible (and in some cases beyond possible) of things which leads to unfair labeling of people and their works. This is compounded by any defense to the person or work being painted as a wrong.

Surely the people who are abusive or racist or sexist or whichever 'ist is appropriate are worse?

 

[Eubani]

Surely the people who are abusive or racist or sexist or whichever 'ist is appropriate are worse?

Interpretation without evidence is toxic. Accusations of racism and sexism based off Interpretation without evidence doubly so.

 

[pemerton]

I can't warm to skill challenges. They just feel slightly off to me. But my experience with them is limited to what I've seen on critical role, so maybe they can work?

At the risk of repetition, here are some old threads:

Skill challenges - who else likes them as the core non-combat sub-system?

The news about future D&D releases has led to some discussions about resolving non-combat challenges. I'm one of those who sees skill challenges as the core 4e mechanic for resolving these things, but am wondering about what others think. The following is a fairly typical criticism of skill...

www.enworld.org

Why I like skill challenges as a noncombat resolution mechanic

A couple of recent threads - one in this sub-forum, and one which got moved to Meta - have talked about noncombat resolution and skill challenges. This has come up in the context of what 4e players might be looking for from D&Dnext. It seems that people are looking for a range of different...

www.enworld.org

On the weekend I ran my first session of 4e that invovled only social interaction. So I thought I'd post about how it went.

The starting point
The PCs are low paragon - a dwarf fighter/warpriest of Moradin, a paladin of the Raven Queen, a wizard/invoker, a drow chaos sorcerer/demonskin adept, and a ranger-cleric of the Raven Queen. The player of the ranger-cleric was absent from the session.

The scenario combines elements of Thunderspire Labyringth (a 4e module), Heathen (from a 2008 online Dragon magazine), Speaker in Dreams (a 3E module from WotC) and Night's Dark Terror (a B/X module from TSR), plus some other elements of my own.

The PCs have recently entered a town which is under increasing pressure from hobgoblin and allied raiders. The town is ruled by a Patriarch of Bahamut and a Baron. The PCs are still getting the lay of the political land.

The PCs entered the town as heroes, having saved an affiliated village from being destroyed by hobgoblins. They were lauded by the Patriarch, and invited to join the Baron for dinner that evening. Later that day they then went on to stop an uprising by Demogorgon/Dagon cultists, and to cleanse the cultists' headquarters. In the headquarters, they rescued a priestess of Ioun who had been chained down next to a gibbering mouther, and had gone insane from the constant gibbering - the wizard cured her insanity using Remove Affliction.

The session begain with the PCs talking to the rescued priestess, and interrogating the one surviving and captured cultist.

Talking to the NPCs
This was almost entirely free roleplaying. The PC paladin had made a successful Intimidate check last session to cow the cultist and stop him running away. He made another check this session to interrogate him - the check was sufficiently high (in the high 20s or low 30s, from memory) that I decided nothing would be held back by the cultist. Some other skill rolls were made (History, Arcana) to see what sense the PCs could make of some of the things that the cultist revealed.

The conversations with the cultist and with the priestess happened side-by-side in play, and mostly side-by-side in the fiction. Three PCs were heavily involved - the paladin interrogating the cultist, the wizard and the sorcerer talking to the priestess. The dwarf was less heavily involved in the conversation, but the player of the dwarf was helping the other players put together and make sense of the information being obtained.

I awarded XP as per the guidelines in DMG2 - one monster's worth for 15 minutes of play.

Two revelations had the biggest immediate impact. One involved the PCs' principal enemy. This is the leader of the hobgoblins, a powerful wizard called Paldemar (but called Golthar in Goblinish). The PCs learned that in the town he is not known to be a villain, but is apparently well-thought of, is an important scholar and astrologer, is an advisor to the Baron, and is engaged to the Baron's niece. The PCs (and the players) became worried that he might be at dinner that evening. This was a worry for two reasons - (i) they didn't really want to fight him, and (ii) they know some secrets about an ancient minotaur kingdom that he does not, but has been trying to discover. One of those secrets involves a magic tapestry that the PCs carry around with them (becaue they don't have anywhere safe to leave it).

The second revelation was that the Baron was prophesied to die that night. The paladin had already sensed a catoblepas in the swamps outside the town, and had sensed it approaching the town earlier that day. The priestess explained that a year ago the Baron had been visited by a catoblepas, as a type of forewarning. And the cultist explained that the uprising had taken place today in anticipation of the Baron's imminent demise.

After learning these things, the PCs cleaned up in the cultists' bathroom and then hurried off to dinner.

The dinner
The PCs arrived late, and were the last ones there. On the high table they could see the Baron, and his sister and brother-in-law, and also Paldemar, their wizard enemy. They left their more gratuitous weapons - a halberd for the dwarf and a longbow for the ranger - with the dwarf's herald - an NPC dwarf minion called Gutboy Barrelhouse - and took their seats at the high table. Gutboy was also carrying the backpack with the tapestry.

The PCs also noticed a series of portraits hanging behind the high table. One had a young woman, who was the spitting image of a wizard's apprentice they had recently freed from a trapping mirror - except that adventure had happened 100 years in the past (under a time displacement ritual), and this painting was clearly newly painted. Another, older, painting was of a couple, a man resembling the Baron, and a woman resmembling the rescued apprentice but at an older age.

About this time the players started talking about the skill checks they wanted to make, and I asked them what they were hoping to achieve. Their main goal was to get through the evening without upsetting the baron, without getting into a fight with Paldemar (which meant, at a minimum, not outing him as the leader of the hobgoblin raiders), and without revealing any secrets to him. In particular, they didn't want him to learn that they had found the tapestry, and that it was in fact 15' away from him in Gutboy's backpack. But it also quickly became clear that they wanted to learn about the people in the portraits, to try and learn what had happened over the past 100 years to the apprentice they freed, and how she related to the Baron's family.

This whole scene was resolved as a complexity 5 skill challenge. It ran for more than an hour, but probably not more than two. The general pattern involved - Paldemar asking the PCs about their exploits; either the paladin or the sorcerer using Bluff to defuse the question and/or evade revealing various secrets they didn't want Paldemar to know; either the paladin or the wizard then using Diplomacy to try to change the topic of conversation to something else - including the Baron's family history; and Paldemar dragging things back onto the PCs exploits and discoveries over the course of their adventures.

Following advice given by LostSoul on these boards back in the early days of 4e, my general approach to running the skill challenge was to keep pouring on the pressure, so as to give the players a reason to have their PCs do things. And one particular point of pressure was the dwarf fighter/cleric - in two senses. In story terms, he was the natural focus of the Baron's attention, because the PCs had been presenting him as their leader upon entering the town, and subsequently. And the Baron was treating him as, in effect, a noble peer, "Lord Derrik of the Dwarfholm to the East". And in mechanical terms, he has no training in social skills and a CHA of 10, so putting the pressure on him forced the players to work out how they would save the situation, and stop the Baron inadvertantly, or Paldemar deliberately, leading Derrik into saying or denying something that would give away secrets. (Up until the climax of the challenge, the only skill check that Derriks' player made in contribution to the challenge was an Athletics check - at one point the Baron described himself as a man of action rather than ideas, and Derrik agreed - I let his player make an Athletics check - a very easy check for him with a +15 bonus - to make the fact of agreement contribute mechanically to the party's success in dealing with the situation.)

Besides the standard skill checks, other strategies were used to defuse the tension at various points. About half way through, the sorcerer - feigning drunkenness with his +20 Bluff bonus - announced "Derrik, it's time to take a piss" - and then led Derrik off to the privy, and then up onto the balcony with the minstrel, so that Paldemar couldn't keep goading and trying to ensnare him. At another point, when the conversation turned to how one might fight a gelatinous cube (Paldemar having explained that he had failed in exploring one particular minotaur ruin because of some cubes, and the PCs not wanting to reveal that they had explored that same ruin after beating the cubes) the sorcerer gave an impromptu demonstration by using Bedevilling Burst to knock over the servants carrying in the jellies for desert. (I as GM had mentioned that desert was being brought in. It was the player who suggested that it should probably include jellies.) That he cast Bedevilling Burst he kept secret (another Bluff check). But he loudly made the point that jellies can be squashed at least as easily as anything else.

While fresh jellies were prepared, Derrik left the table to give a demonstration of how one might fight oozes using a halberd and fancy footwork. But he then had to return to the table for desert.

Around this time, the challenge had evolved to a point where one final roll was needed, and 2 failures had been accrued. Paldemar, once again, was badgering Derrik to try to learn the secrets of the minotaur ruins that he was sure the PCs knew. And the player of Derrik was becoming more and more frustrated with the whole situation, declaring (not speaking in character, but speaking from the perspective of his PC) "I'm sick of putting up with this. I want Paldemar to come clean."

The Baron said to Derrik, "The whole evening, Lord Derrik, it has seemed to me that you are burdened by something. Will you not speak to me?" Derrik got out of his seat and went over to the Baron, knelt beside him, and whispered to him, telling him that out of decorum he would not name anyone, but there was someone close to the Baron who was not what he seemed, and was in fact a villainous leader of the hobgoblin raiders. The Baron asked how he knew this, and Derrik replied that he had seen him flying out of goblin strongholds on his flying carpet. The Baron asked him if he would swear this in Moradin's name. Derrik replied "I swear". At which point the Baron rose from the table and went upstairs to brood on the balcony, near the minstrel.

With one check still needed to resolve the situation, I had Paldemar turn to Derrik once again, saying "You must have said something very serious, to so upset the Baron." Derrik's player was talking to the other players, and trying to decide what to do. He clearly wanted to fight. I asked him whether he really wanted to provoke Paldemar into attacking him. He said that he did. So he had Derrik reply to Paldemar, 'Yes, I did, Golthar". And made an Intimidate check. Which failed by one. So the skill challenge was over, but a failure - I described Paldemar/Golthar standing up, pickup up his staff from where it leaned against the wall behind him, and walking towards the door.

Now we use a houserule (perhaps, in light of DMG2, not so much a houserule as a precisification of a suggestion in that book) that a PC can spend an action point to make a secondary check to give another PC a +2 bonus, or a reroll, to a failed check. The player of the wizard PC spent an action point, and called out "Golthar, have you fixed the tear yet in your robe?" - this was a reference to the fact that the PCs had, on a much earlier occasion, found a bit of the hem of Paldemar's robe that had torn off in the ruins when he had had to flee the gelatinous cubes. I can't remember now whether I asked for an Intimidate check, or decided that this was an automatic +2 bonus for Derrik - but in any event, it turned the failure into a success. We ended the session by noting down everyone's location on the map of the Baron's great hall, and making initiative rolls. Next session will begin with the fight against Paldemar (which may or may not evolve into a fight with a catoblepas also - the players are a bit anxious that it may do so).

This is the most sophisticated skill challenge I've run to date, in terms of the subtlety of the framing, the degree of back and forth (two major PCs with whom the PCs were interacting, with different stakes in the interaction with each of them), my concentration on evolving the scene to reflect the skill checks and the other action while still keeping up the pressure on the players (and on their PCs), and the goals of the players, which started out a little uncertain and somewhat mixed, but ended up being almost the opposite of what they were going into the challenge.

 

[Hussar]

How does one apologize for unforgivable things? How does one pay debts that can never be repaid?

Short answer? You don’t.

At some point bridges burned mean that you can’t go back. Sometimes that means you lose things that you once valued. It’s unfortunate but it happens.

Sometimes it’s just not possible to fix things once broken.

 

[Mercurius]

This thread is awesome: Alternating posts about the proper usage of the "C-word" with discussion about skill challenges.

 

[MNblockhead]

Yes and that's certainly a reaction you can have. The GM needs to really take the abilities of their group into account when deciding to use a skill challenge. Most of the problems (but not all) I've had with skill challenges came from published adventures where the designer forgot that maybe the Fighter has nothing to offer but Athletics or Intimidation.

Yeah, I'm a fan of skill challenges, but use them sparingly. Sometimes when you try to give everyone the spotlight equally, nobody shines.

For most things, I find that bog-standard skill checks work fine. There is a challenge, the players discuss ways their characters try to overcome those challenges. The DM calls for one or more skill checks and narrates the results. Rinse and repeat.

I find the 4e skill challenges, as I use them (based on Matt Coleville's discussion of 4e and how he uses them in 5e), good for two types of scenarios:

1. Montage scenes where you want to have consequences for player decisions, successes, and failures, but do not want a significant amount of your session to be playing (i.e.) the long travel from A to B. The sailing a ship example someone gave above is a good example. Simply traveling through the wilderness may not be, but if you are moving through enemy territory, have scouts out searching for you, etc. It can be more fun to do a skill challenge than just rolling random tables and doing the normal exploration cycle, and playing through every random-encounter combat. And it makes sense. Who's watching out for ambushes while the ranger is tracking or looking for food? That doesn't mean I always use skill challenges in these situations. Sometime we play it out in the traditional hex-exploration style, tracking resource consumption, rolling on random-encounter tables, etc. Sometime we just narrate it. "You've spent a month travelling to the McGuffin Palace, what happened along the way?" Sometimes we hand-wave the travel entirely. "After a month of travel, you find yourselves at McGuffin Palace." Skill checks are just another tool in my DM toolbox.

2. High stakes, complex challenges with a lot going on, especially when there is element of needing to complete something in a certain amount of time. I generally don't use this for situations like "you need to stop the evil cultist ritual before the Terrible Evil Thing is summoned. I prefer playing that out round by round. But, like I stated in my prior example, after defeating that ritual, if you need to get out of there before the temple comes down or you get overwhelmed mobs of angry cultists, I think skill challenges work well. Another example: last night I rewatched 13th Warrior.

Spoiler: Don't read if you have not watched 13th Warrior and care about spoilers

After they kill the mother, there is an escape scene. They need to find a way out before they are overwhelmed by wendol. They are not familiar with the caves, there is some light combat but it is mostly trying to avoid combat and find a way out. There is sneaking, there is swinging across ledges, there is climbing down walls, there is swimming in an underwater cave, etc. It could have played out differently if they went down a different tunnel. This would be a perfect scene to use a skill challenge.

Some people are never going to like skill challenges, they will want to play everything out PC by PC, action by action. Just like some people dislike more narrative style play. That's fine. My campaign is mostly more old-school inspired with long, tactical combats, and searching the dungeon square by square. But my players have never complained about skill challenges when I used them. They are another tool to keep things interesting. Like anything, you have to know your group and what they enjoy.

 

[Raunalyn]

I think the most toxic part of the fandom is the way some seek the worse interpretation possible (and in some cases beyond possible) of things which leads to unfair labeling of people and their works. This is compounded by any defense to the person or work being painted as a wrong.

This!

Once a label is applied, there is no defense. To me, it is one of the most toxic and hypocritical things about our fandom. In my experience, the ones throwing around the label using shoddy evidence or who ascribe certain motives and make assumptions about the person being labeled are usually projecting.

 

[MNblockhead]

What do you do when you realize you’re part of the problem? I get that stop being terrible is the easy answer, but after that?

As I've aged and have dealt with greater and more important challenges in life, I find it easier and easier to disengage in these situations. Especially online. I like what I like, you like what you like. We don't have to agree. Sometimes you run into people that don't share that outlook. Life's too short to stay in a toxic relationship, especially when they are weak connections. And strangers on a fan forum are just not worth putting up with unimportant negativity. Disengage. I rarely use tools like ignore buttons (I'm good at ignoring posts on my own), but they are there for a reason. If you find yourself compelled to respond to every slight or nasty comment, use the ignore button on the people making them. Or, sometimes, just leave the forum. I've disengaged from most social media platforms because I didn't find a net benefit in my life from the stream of negative content and information overload.

In person, it can be a little more difficult. If I find myself playing at a table where there is some obnoxious person with strong opinions that won't let up, I generally don't engage in the argument so that the table can just enjoy the game. It would have to be especially poisonous and nasty for me to walk away. My own failing is that I have strong sarcastic streak and I have to check myself to not make snide comments.

 

[Raunalyn]

How does one apologize for unforgivable things? How does one pay debts that can never be repaid?

Anything can be forgiven. Things may not go back to how they were before, but if the person is truly contrite, then forgiveness can happen. The thing about forgiveness is that it is for you, not the other person.

Thing about burnt bridges is that they can be mended.

On the other hand, sometimes the person you are forgiving is too much of a narcissist to realize they've done something wrong. A sure sign of this is when they start whining and playing the victim when you point out their behavior. It's sad, but until they recognize their actions, there really won't be any reconciliation