TPK Your Entire Party

[werk]

Just to be clear, I use all alignment as a frame of reference. I build a personality, and then look where it fits clearest. I dont work back from archetypal alignment, and try to be that, to a T. Real characters are not archetypes, they are people.

I think that is great, and is what I usually do, but it needs to fit within the guideline presented by the DM.

If I, as DM, said roll up a character, no Evil alignments, make heroes, not zeroes...you aren't allowed to make a NE character and say, "that's his personality, it's the way I make characters." Bullocks.

 

[Seeten]

I always make characters with the DM and other players. We make them as a group, we dont make 5 seperate characters with no input at all, and at the first session, break them out and say, "SURPRISE!!"

The DM is involved every step of the way.

I dont make evil characters for campaigns that say "All characters must be good", nor did I claim I did, so I dont understand where this attribution comes from. My entire series of posts comes from the idea that the OP is representative of why no one should play evil characters, as though all evil PC's are plotting to murder the other PC's in their sleep.

 

[KarinsDad]

Just to be clear, I use all alignment as a frame of reference. I build a personality, and then look where it fits clearest. I dont work back from archetypal alignment, and try to be that, to a T. Real characters are not archetypes, they are people.

Actually, real characters are not people. They are characters.

Be that as it may, alignment is like every other attribute of a character. Str, Dex, Con, Feats, etc. If a PC is LG, there should be some boundaries to the PC's allowed and required behavior. Ditto for the rest of the alignments. A PC should not often perform acts outside his alignment without it changing. Nor should a PC who does not react according to alignment stay that way (e.g. a Good PC who nevers donates to charity, never offers surrender to enemies, never helps others, etc. is not truly good, he is neutral). Not all situations have to be handled by the same alignment PCs the same way, but it is pretty easy to tell when someone is not really playing their alignment.

However, there are not that many rules associated with alignment, so some (and probably many) people play at it. Some aspects of the PC's personality fit with the alignment, however, many often do not.

Your Paladin torturing example is just one such example. Because there are no hard and fast mechanics rules on alignment, different people judge different behaviors to be acceptable within a given alignment. But, the alignment rules are in the book. They are just difficult to enforce.

A little amount of leaway is required, but a LE PC who does not perform evil acts is not evil. Just like the LG Paladin who tortured is not good (that one is a DM setup foobar though).

Playing a LE PC Necromancer should require occasional evil acts, not just casting evil spells. Otherwise, the player is playing at LE, he is not actually roleplaying LE. IMO.


That is why I like BoED. As DM, I can use it as a very specific rules model concerning alignment. I might not agree with everything it says and might house rule some things out of it, but it's pretty crystal clear there (unlike the PHB) that torture is an evil act. The ends do not justify the means. And a LE PC who always helps out the party and never does evil acts, even on the side, is not evil.

 

[Seeten]

I pretty much disagree with the above statement in its entirety. I disagree in almost every facet. Personality is not a number, nor would I play in a game that treated it as such, or penalized me for being "too LN, or Not LE enough". My character is a character, not a collection of stats.

 

[Seeten]

More succintly, Personality determines my alignment, not my alignment determines my personality.

Others are free to do whatever they like, but determining personality from alignment by necessity means something different than the games I play in.

 

[IanB]

I pretty much disagree with the above statement in its entirety. I disagree in almost every facet. Personality is not a number, nor would I play in a game that treated it as such, or penalized me for being "too LN, or Not LE enough". My character is a character, not a collection of stats.

I completely, 100% agree with the disagreement. I think it is entirely possible for an evil character to *never* commit an overtly evil act. Motivation and philosophy are important too.

The converse is not true - it is not possible for a good character to commit an overtly evil act and still be considered good, I don't think, but that's fine - the dark side is the easy path, after all.

 

[Sound of Azure]

KD,

You really do seem to like quoting the alignment rules, and the exact descriptions of each one.

You.... did notice the bit in the last paragraph on page 103, right? The bit about Alignment not being a straightjacket, and the bit about people not being necessarily consistent?

You're right that actions are necessary to maintain a particular alignment, but characters aren't locked into one set of behaviour by alignment. Even Paladins are not locked into a set behaviour (there are bad consequences if they breach the code, of course... but they're not locked into it all the same ).

 

[The Thayan Menace]

The Many Faces of Evil

No one wants to be a bad person IN THEIR OWN mind, so to me, that makes a difference.

Some individuals do consider themselves evil, and are quite proud of it.

Very few.

True ... however, in addition to avowed disciples of evil (e.g., Richard Ramirez), there are neurotic moralists who believe that they are evil (e.g., Carrie's mother).

There are also amoral sociopaths who do not have the capacity to be truly reflective (e.g., Patrick Bateman).

-Samir

 

[Seeten]

True ... however, in addition to avowed disciples of evil (e.g., Richard Ramirez), there are neurotic moralists who believe that they are evil (e.g., Carrie's mother).

There are also amoral sociopaths who do not have the capacity to be truly reflective (e.g., Patrick Bateman).

-Samir

I am not asserting that there are not, simply that the majority of people outside of our normal views of morality, who we might consider evil, either justify things in their own mind, "Ends justify the means" or "I am doing it for their own good, so they cant corrupt the righteous" or any number of others. Most people are not proud to be considered EVIL.

Some people are psychopaths. Some people are sociopaths. These are mental conditions, which makes those with them, by definition, not normal. Neither is common, and I dont play either as characters.

I wont discuss real world stuff, as its against board rules, but lots of terrorists believe they are doing right, for example, when the majority believes them either insane, or EVIL. Further, there are serial killers with genuine remorse, who just couldnt stop, and others who were sociopaths, and just didnt care, or simply did not have the capacity to understand good vs evil, and others, who knew the difference, and chose, of their own volition, to be EVIL.

A lot of literature has been written on the mafia, and most of the men in it consider themselves to be badasses, but most also consider themselves good catholics, family men, and a benefit to society. Yeah, they'll break your kneecaps if you welch on a debt, so don't, but they'll help children through university, come to the rescue of businesses in trouble, people with excessive hospital bills, many have been considered a hero by the people of their community.

None of this means the mob isnt evil, or lawbreaking, or whatever.

There are pure evil people in the world, who are evil, know they are evil, and revel in it. But they are not that numerous compared to the people who consider themselves good people, but cross that line all too often without even realizing what it makes them. Even smart, self aware people.

Anyone who wants to play a psychopathic chaotic evil killer is welcome to it, go nuts, or whatever, but it isnt my cup of tea. I am not saying they dont exist in real life, just that they arent nearly as numerous as the people who snap from time to time, but normally are nice, or kind, or the people who feel the ends justify the means, or who think they are good people EVEN THOUGH sometimes they do bad things.

To me, evil is only enjoyable in a group if it is capable of being part OF the group. D&D is a group activity and any character that cant fit into the group is a character I wont play. Chaotic Evil murdering psychos are one such character, as are Lawful Good holier than thou everyone must behave my way Paladins. I wont do either, and ruin the other players experience.

Do my evil characters do evil things? I think they do. My necromancer ended up ruling a kingdom, with the originally LG fighter as her General, and firmly LN, and the originally CG thief as her "Master of Spies", and he was still CG. The kingdom was originally run by an NPC, who I ousted through political maneuvering and strong arm tactics, and by solving the realms problems for him, when he could not. Did I murder his bloodline? No, but I didnt have to. I used political acumen, timely spellcasting, lots of neat illusions to make myself look good, etc, to avoid it. My bad intentions? To steal his kingdom and rule it with an iron fist, in a velvet glove.

Not evil enough for you? I dont really care. =)

Not archetypal LE? Not enough devil summoning? Again, not my concern. I set out to play my character. I dont set out to "follow an alignment" and nowhere do I recall reading anything stating, "If you are not an exemplar of all facets of your alignment, you fail at D&D, good day Sir."

Alignment is a guideline. I don't like it to start with, but it doesnt define who you are, or how you act. You define that. Then, over time, your actions, and intentions, determine where you fall in the alignment axis.

 

[KarinsDad]

I pretty much disagree with the above statement in its entirety. I disagree in almost every facet. Personality is not a number, nor would I play in a game that treated it as such,

Who said it was a number?

I said it was an attribute. A part of a character, no different than any other part except that there are few rules governing it.

or penalized me for being "too LN, or Not LE enough". My character is a character, not a collection of stats.

If your PC is CG, a DM is well within his rights to penalize the PC for being too LN.


And yes, your character is a collection of stats. You could not play him within the DND game system otherwise.

You have no "higher moral roleplaying ground" of "I play my character as a personality". We all do that.

But all of us, yourself included, play the character as per his/her abilities as well. It is impossible to not do so.