Trading SkillPoints for Feats and vice versa

[AGGEMAM]

Steven, I think you missed my point.

If you want to make the feat-4-skills system work, you simply have to make it easy to integrate in the current system.

Pricing each individual feat for each individual core class (and PrC) is simply to cumbersome and unworkable in practice.

Remember, that last time I checked there was 429 official WotC feats released. Also your pricing will be influenced by what you think are good and bad feats. Although, your judgement might be good enough, there will always be complaints about this or that feat should be priced higher or lower.

Aggemam.

 

[Steven McRownt]

Thanx Aggemam, i was trying to make something huge, and too subjective. I realized that this morning, so i was considering to go straight to a fixed cost SkillPoints4Feat different for each class, but they have to choose that feat from a list. If they want another one, not included in that list, they will need the double amount of skill points. Again there we'll be a particular reward, different for each class if they renounce to a bonus feat 4 skill points.

Cleric/Priest/Monk/Wizard/Fighter/Paladin 12 Skill points 4 a Feat, a feat worths 10 Sk.P.
Bard/Druid/Barbarian/Sorcerer(Monte's) 15 Skill points 4 a feat, a feat worth 12 Sk.P.
Ranger (Monte's) 20 Skill points 4 a feat, a feat worths 17 sk.p.
Thief 25 Skill points 4 a feat, a feat worths 20 Sk.P


Is the math correct?

Steven McRownt

 

[AGGEMAM]

Here is my suggestion. This has the advantage that it also works with multi-classing characters. Some tweeking might be in order, though.


The Feat-for-Skill Points system.

At first character level, you may give up your x4 Skill Point multiplier to gain an extra feat.
To reflect this in role-playing your character should start at the minimum starting age for your characters class and race.

At second and every character level thereafter, you may save up a number of skill points equal to one half your total number of gained skill points at that level rounded down.
You can use these saved skill point to buy extra feats for 20 skill points per extra feat. If your character has bonus feat list these can be bought for 15 skill points per extra feat.
To reflect this in role-playing you should use the training system in the DMG, if you do not use this system already use it for these extra feats.

Additionally, you may trade in a feat at any level to gain 10 extra skill points. If the feat traded this is a bonus feat you gain only 6 extra skill points for that feat.
As above these extra skill points should be combined with the training system, or if gained at first character level should reflected in a higher than normal starting age.

 

[Steven McRownt]

Here is my suggestion. This has the advantage that it also works with multi-classing characters. Some tweeking might be in order, though.

Uhmmm, yes, i was not considering that it could be much more difficult to a muticlass character to keep tracks of skill points, and then "choose" the feat from "the class list"

The Feat-for-Skill Points system.

At first character level, you may give up your x4 Skill Point multiplier to gain an extra feat.
To reflect this in role-playing your character should start at the minimum starting age for your characters class and race.

Don't you think that is too much having a human fighter, psychic warrior with FOUR feats? (1 racial, 1 st level character, 1 bonus from the class, 1 renouncing at the x4 multiplier) A human rouge with THREE feats seems too min-max too much also....

At second and every character level thereafter, you may save up a number of skill points equal to one half your total number of gained skill points at that level rounded down.
You can use these saved skill point to buy extra feats for 20 skill points per extra feat. If your character has bonus feat list these can be bought for 15 skill points per extra feat.
To reflect this in role-playing you should use the training system in the DMG, if you do not use this system already use it for these extra feats.

It works. I agree totally for training issue: I mean, of course there should be a special training for those ones (but actually i let my characters spend time and money on training even if it is not as every level, but in particular occasions)

Additionally, you may trade in a feat at any level to gain 10 extra skill points. If the feat traded this is a bonus feat you gain only 6 extra skill points for that feat.
As above these extra skill points should be combined with the training system, or if gained at first character level should reflected in a higher than normal starting age.

I should give them 12 and 8 skill points, because it is always a tough choice to give up a feat.

What do you think instead of giving them 8 and 4 skill points, but saying that they are considered one-to-one for adding ranks even for cross class abilities?

Steven McRownt

 

[AGGEMAM]

Points taken! I don't agree with the one-for-one ranks suggestion, though.

The Feat-for-Skill Points system Rev 2.

At every character level you may save up a number of skill points equal to one half your total number of gained skill points at that level rounded down.
You can use these saved skill point to buy extra feats for 20 skill points per extra feat. If your character class has a bonus feat list these can be bought for 16 skill points per extra feat.
To reflect this in role-playing you should use the training system in the DMG, if you do not use this system already use it for these extra feats and possibly also start with a lower than normal starting age.

Additionally, you may trade in a feat at any level to gain 12 extra skill points. If the feat traded this way is a bonus feat you gain only 9 extra skill points for that feat.
As above these extra skill points should be combined with the training system, or if gained at first character level should reflected in a higher than normal starting age.

 

[Steven McRownt]

Tht's seems balanced, and a good way to reduce the chance of PCs who want to min-max.

Let's quit the one-to-one rank, i agree with you that there is something wrong in it...

Steven McRownt

 

[AGGEMAM]

Almost balanced, I forgot to include a restriction at first level.


The Feat-for-Skill Points system Rev 3.

At first character level you may save up a number of skill points equal to one quarter your total number of gained skill points at first level rounded down.
At every other character level you may save up a number of skill points equal to one half your total number of gained skill points at that level rounded down.
You can use these saved skill point to buy extra feats for 20 skill points per extra feat. If your character class has a bonus feat list these can be bought for 16 skill points per extra feat.
To reflect this in role-playing you should use the training system in the DMG, if you do not use this system already use it for these extra feats and possibly also start with a lower than normal starting age.

Additionally, you may trade in a feat at any level to gain 12 extra skill points. If the feat traded this way is a bonus feat you gain only 9 extra skill points for that feat.
As above these extra skill points should be combined with the training system, or if gained at first character level should reflected in a higher than normal starting age.

 

[Crothian]

This is looking good, my only consider is with the numbers. I don't think feats are that much better then skill points. I find that characters need more skill points more then they need more feats.

I think it's be great for a first level fighter to trade his first level feat (keeping his fighter feat, and his racial if human) for 12 skill points. That might make a him a feat behind in certain trees but the 12 skill points is huge at first level.

 

[Steven McRownt]

Crothian, are you suggestin to simply start the two-way trade from second level?

Alternatively, we can say that renouncing to a feat at first level will not give the player the x4 bonus to skill points to not boots too much at first level.

IMHO a fighter who give up a feat a first level could be underpowered in combat situation, but it's true that for him there's a lot to gain givin up a feat someday; the same thing for a thief that wants to be more effective in combat situation or needs a feat to improve certain abilities. But tht's the point of the house rule: versatility over all.

A different thing is if you think that we're doind the math wrongly. AGGEMAN suggested as his first consideration 10 and 6 skill points, instead of 12 and 9 (natural character advancement feat, and bonus feat respectively). Do you think that it's more balanced?

Steven McRownt

 

[Crothian]

Without playing it out it's really hard to say. This is just mtopinion from playing. I'd never give up that many skill points for a feat. That might be just me, though. I think skill points are to valuible.

Also, at the higher levels people run out of feats to take. So, sarcrificng a feat at these higher levels for a bunch of skill points is something again I would do. It doesn't have to be at first level.

My games may be a little more skill oriented then many others, though. Have you had a chance to try these out yet in actual game play?

Personally, I would not allow for any trading at first level. I would reduce the number of skill points for a feat to 16/12 (reguliar feat/bonus feat list) and have the number of skill points for a feat be the 10/6.