Trading SkillPoints for Feats and vice versa

[Steven McRownt]

I trust you. I can't just wait to face each feat at the time my players will ask, just because we're playing wery rarely, lately. But i still give to D&D loads of hours, so i will start to make a list... stay tuned!!!!!

Steven McRownt

 

[Crothian]

A few things to be careful with the trading systems even with differnt costs depending on the class. It favors higher intelligent people becasue they have more skill points. Especially High intelligence mixed with a low skill point class. An 18 Int triples the number a fighter gets for instance, while only allowing the roguew a 50% increase. Humansd also with their extra skill points have this advantage. Half orcs are the opposite, their int penaty effeectively gives them less skill points per level.

One could develope a system that applies only to the base skill points. One cannot spend extra skill points due to race or high Int to trade for feats. However, I think that the problem should just be known about and allow it to exist.

 

[Moulin Rogue]

I also like the idea of trading skill points and feats, as long as you can't build instant feat chains a character of low level should not normally be able to have because that could cause headaches; 25 points for one feat might cover that anyhow but I haven't done the math. The Skill Focus feat doesn't look like a good trade, though

Why the need to have different costs by class level? To me (and the following text is all IMO) the game is making an assumption about what's going on during training, and budgets the time out for you:

- the rogue is devoting a bit of time to improving his combat ability (BAB and HP), but spends much more time practising skills. He does NOT get more skill points because he is any better at learning necessarily, he gets more points because he's devoting a lot of time to it.

- the cleric spends the same amount of time improving his offense abilities as the rogue does (same BAB progression), and a little more to defense (higher hit die) but devotes much time to praying for higher-level spells, more power over the undead, or whatever it is clerics do in your campaign world to improve their divine abilities. They only have a bit of time left over to work on their skills.

- Wizards and sorcerers spend so much time honing their arcane power that they spend very little time improving combat OR skills.

Interpreted this way, what goodies you get on your next level jump would depend on how you budgeted your time. The default game handles this for you in a logical way, but I don't see why the rogue should get extra-punished for cutting down on his skills training to free up a big gap in his training time, and practising something else in that frame instead. He's already giving up the ability to be a complete master of the standard "rogue stuff", kind of like multiclassing.

This idea might be completely messed-up if applied to the house rule actually at hand in this thread, I don't know. You can probably tell by now that I'm a point-buy kind of guy.

 

[Steven McRownt]

First of all I have to thank everyone for the feedbacks received.

Now i will try to anser to your question, ideas, and suggestions.

High int or race int malus are just part of the game; it's difficult to find a fighter with 18 in INT, so i really do not care makin the math for this particular issue. And then if there's a fighter with 18 in INT will have probably less STR or CON, so it could be good for him to access to a major number of feat to balance his physical weaknesses.

To answer to Mulin Rouge, the only "level restriction" is to not have a human rouge with 3 feats at his first starting level. It could be too much. So i prefer to start the chance of trading from the second level; in this way the first x4 is to be spent in Sk.Points only.
Perhaps you're right that each class has diffrerent skill points progression just because they rely on skills differently. But for a rouge or a very intteligent wizard 25 skill points should be more or less 3 o 4 levels without increasing ranks in their skills, for a cleric (which is not relying on INT nor have a good sk.p progression) could be something like 8 (!) levels without taking any ranks in their skills. Perhaps too much.

On the other side i was starting to value each feat. And i came up that an objective appraisal of their skill points value is very, very difficult. Think about it. Everyone have a different use of each skill, each feat when playing or DMing; and consequently everyone has different scales... I am not lazy, i am simply saying that a list made in that way couldn't be acceptable...

Skill points per level x3 for a feat coming from a fixed list different for each classes could do the job. Or otherwise makes differents list not depending on classes but for value. They will be not accurate, but less criticable....

Steven McRownt

 

[Crothian]

Well, then you could make a list as you see the value of feats and we could argue and yell about it for pages and pages of messages.

A simple system usually is the best solution.

 

[Geoff Watson]

Geoff, who will ever renounce to a feat just for skill points? They add, this is true, a couple of +2, but this bonus are made to break the level limit (Lvl+3 Class skill; Lvl+3/2 Cross Class skills), so their value is higher, much higher indeed.

Steven McRownt [/B]

Huh? You suggest exchanging a feat for skill points in your first post.

Someone who doesn't get many skill points per level may want to do so, especially if they need actual ranks in a skill (eg. for prestige classes), or there isn't a +2to2 feat that fits what they want.

Geoff.

 

[Zack2216]

I think that if you are going to exchange skill points for feats, it should be determined by how many skill points you get( or that it doesn't matter). Perhaps you should have to trade like 3-4 levels in skill points in order to gain an extra feat. The cost sould be very high.

 

[AGGEMAM]

As an alternative you might want to consider limiting the number of skill a character can save up to somewhere between 2 and 4 regardless of class and intelligence, I suggest 3.

This would solve the problem of players taking a level or two of rogue just save up skill points to trade into feats, this is really a problem if the character is not created at 1st level.

It would also solve the cost of skill points exploding, I mean, 20-25 skill points for a feat, no way! With the above in mind, I suggest 12 skill points for a feat, giving you potentially 5 extra feats over 20 levels.

Also this would allow a the extra skill points feat to work more seemlessly, if it granted a flat amout of skill points say 4-6.

 

[Steven McRownt]

Huh? You suggest exchanging a feat for skill points in your first post.

Someone who doesn't get many skill points per level may want to do so, especially if they need actual ranks in a skill (eg. for prestige classes), or there isn't a +2to2 feat that fits what they want.

Geoff.

Of course i was not referring to my house rule. Who would renounce to a big number of skill points to have a couple of +2?
I was pointing out, or trying to do so, that a skill focus feat (above all the ones that grants two +2, or a fat +4) are not so useless as the vast majority of players think.

Steven McRownt

 

[Steven McRownt]

This would solve the problem of players taking a level or two of rogue just save up skill points to trade into feats, this is really a problem if the character is not created at 1st level.

A PC(average INT, no bonus) who want to take some level in rouge just to take a feat, with my flat house rule, has to renounce at 4 levels. (8x4=24, but he needs 25 sk.p. to take a feat). Do a wizard (18 INT, +4 bonus) will take 3 levels in rouge to have a bonus feat, renouncing to 3 ninth level spells and a bonus feat? (i remind you that a 20th level wizard gain a bonus feat). I think that for that simple math reasons no one will ever take some level in another class just for have a feat more.

Of course i have to find a correct way to balance it all, with the backbone of the rule sayin that a charcater have to renounce to an amount of skill points accumulable in something like 3-5 levels.

The original idea had one strong point. Perhaps rouges will have to gain more from this rule, but at the same time they have to rely on skills; fighter have usually low INT scores and a low sk.point progression chart, but they have plenty of them. The problem arise not with wizard, but with clerics. A cleric or a Priest* can't afford the price of too many skill points for a feat.

From that consideration came the idea of different list of feats for each class, and each class has to pay a number of skill points closely connected to their sk.points progression. Pickin up a feat from a list that is not of your class will cost the double of their price.

Now i am trying to make the math, i'll be back soon!


*The best alt.cleric you can find on this board!

Steven McRownt