D&D 5E Traditional or Historial Arms and Armor

[Hussar]

By the same token, it's probably better to be in full plate when hit by a car than in regular clothes. After all, bullets hit pretty darn hard, and a good suit of armor, while it might not completely stop bullets, is more effective than nothing.

As far as leather being leather is concerned, that's too simplistic. That's like saying the side of a horse is the same as the side of a rhino. After all, it's all just skin right? Never minding some of the weirder monsters. Just what is the armor equivalent of a gelatinous cube? Or a Will-o-the-Wisp?

In 3e, a ghoul has 2 points of natural armor, but a wight has 4. Why? What is the armor equivalent there?

This is a huge rabbit hole that I would never want to see in core rules.

 

[Steely_Dan]

By the same token, it's probably better to be in full plate when hit by a car than in regular clothes.

I'm not sure, all that extra metal attached to you could cause more damage.

But, yeah, AC is AC, let's not try and get in too deep.

 

[ArmoredSaint]

I think both camps can be made reasonably happy fairly easily.

While I love good, old-fashioned D&D traditions, I come down ever-so-slightly on the side of preferring historical armors.

I propose the following changes to the fluff of the present armor table:

Armor: Price: AC:

Light Armor:
Boiled/Studded Leather 10sp 11+Dex
Brigandine 500sp 12+Dex
Mithril Mailshirt 5,000sp 13+Dex

Medium Armor:
Mailshirt 25sp 13+Dex(max 2)
Breastplate 500sp 14+Dex(max 2)
Dragonscale 5,000sp 15+Dex(max 2)

Heavy Armor:
Ringmail 30sp 14
(chain)Mail 75sp 16
Splint/Banded/Scale 500sp 17
Plate 5,000sp 18


None of the mechanics are changed. However, I got rid of that displacer beast hide silliness, and brought back a couple of armor types that are both historical and have a history with older editions of the game: the brigandine, (non-mithril) mailshirt, and the breastplate. Roll studded leather into "regular" (boiled) leather armour (hey, they're both techniques that supposedly augment the protective qualities of leather, right?), and--in a nod to 4th edition--combine scale with splint/banded (both of which I interpret as referring to different types of 14th century-style Wisby coats of plates).

As for the pricing, I can accept that the construction of a brigandine is a sufficiently intricate operation to warrant a pricetag in line with some heavy armor types without resorting to explaining the high price with magic or rarity, as was the case with displacer beast hide.

The heavy scale armor, I imagine as a long coat of fairly large scales worn with a helmet. The brigandine I envision as one of those later 16th century styles, with hundreds of tiny plates and rivets, perhaps with a fancy velvet cover and gilt rivet-heads to help justify that price. The mailshirt needs no explanation, but I think it can be safely included in medium armor while its rich mithril cousin can be counted as light. The breastplate can be pictured either as classical "spartan" hoplite armour or as pop-culture "conquistador" style armor; in either case, it's a cuirass (and maybe a skirt), a helmet, and greaves, which image is a staple of fantasy fiction.

I confess that I have no explanation for why (chain)mail, whose construction is also fairly intricate, should be so cheap in this iteration of the D&D universe--maybe wire-drawing technology somehow evolved in advance of sheet-metal manufacturing techniques.

Anyway, I'd rather see an armor selection like the above instead of what was released. Yeah, I know that renaming items just amounts to a flavor change, but it would be nice to see an official sanction of this.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

I think both camps can be made reasonably happy fairly easily.

While I love good, old-fashioned D&D traditions, I come down ever-so-slightly on the side of preferring historical armors.

I propose the following changes to the fluff of the present armor table:

Armor: Price: AC:

Light Armor:
Boiled/Studded Leather 10sp 11+Dex
Brigandine 500sp 12+Dex
Mithril Mailshirt 5,000sp 13+Dex

Medium Armor:
Mailshirt 25sp 13+Dex(max 2)
Breastplate 500sp 14+Dex(max 2)
Dragonscale 5,000sp 15+Dex(max 2)

Heavy Armor:
Ringmail 30sp 14
(chain)Mail 75sp 16
Splint/Banded/Scale 500sp 17
Plate 5,000sp 18


None of the mechanics are changed. However, I got rid of that displacer beast hide silliness, and brought back a couple of armor types that are both historical and have a history with older editions of the game: the brigandine, (non-mithril) mailshirt, and the breastplate. Roll studded leather into "regular" (boiled) leather armour (hey, they're both techniques that supposedly augment the protective qualities of leather, right?), and--in a nod to 4th edition--combine scale with splint/banded (both of which I interpret as referring to different types of 14th century-style Wisby coats of plates).

As for the pricing, I can accept that the construction of a brigandine is a sufficiently intricate operation to warrant a pricetag in line with some heavy armor types without resorting to explaining the high price with magic or rarity, as was the case with displacer beast hide.

The heavy scale armor, I imagine as a long coat of fairly large scales worn with a helmet. The brigandine I envision as one of those later 16th century styles, with hundreds of tiny plates and rivets, perhaps with a fancy velvet cover and gilt rivet-heads to help justify that price. The mailshirt needs no explanation, but I think it can be safely included in medium armor while its rich mithril cousin can be counted as light. The breastplate can be pictured either as classical "spartan" hoplite armour or as pop-culture "conquistador" style armor; in either case, it's a cuirass (and maybe a skirt), a helmet, and greaves, which image is a staple of fantasy fiction.

I confess that I have no explanation for why (chain)mail, whose construction is also fairly intricate, should be so cheap in this iteration of the D&D universe--maybe wire-drawing technology somehow evolved in advance of sheet-metal manufacturing techniques.

Anyway, I'd rather see an armor selection like the above instead of what was released. Yeah, I know that renaming items just amounts to a flavor change, but it would be nice to see an official sanction of this.

You might be better moving Brigandine to medium armor at the low end. The reason for using metal plates riveted between to layers of leather is that is was far, far cheaper to make and repair than mail or plate armor, while still providing significant protection. So, make it the cheap medium armor and increase the effectiveness and cost of mail to better reflect the time and difficulty of its manufacture.

But, other than that, your list well reflects the kind of changes I'd like to see to the core.

 

[ArmoredSaint]

You might be better moving Brigandine to medium armor at the low end. The reason for using metal plates riveted between to layers of leather is that is was far, far cheaper to make and repair than mail or plate armor, while still providing significant protection. So, make it the cheap medium armor and increase the effectiveness and cost of mail to better reflect the time and difficulty of its manufacture.

But, other than that, your list well reflects the kind of changes I'd like to see to the core.

I'm totally fine with that, but then what would go in the 500gp light armor slot?

 

[Wyckedemus]

Armor Ideas

I think that there should be general armor categories, and the *Descriptions" of those categories contain the variety of armors that fit into those categories. The following suggested table gives purpose to the various armor types beyond cost.

Light Armor AC Max Dex Cost
Leather 11 +5 10gp
Brigandine 12 +4 25gp
Chain Shirt 13 +3 40gp

Medium Armor
(-1 to Str and Dex checks)
Hide Armor 14 +3 30gp
Chain Mail 15 +2 75gp
Scale Mail 16 +1 90gp

Heavy Armor
(-1 to Str and Dex checks, Cannot move while being Stealthy, -5 speed)
Banded Armor 17 +2 100gp
Plate Armor 18 +1 250gp
Full Plate Armor 19 +0 500gp

Leather: include the variety of light, non-metallic armors. Examples: leather armor, padded armors, light hides, paper armors.

Brigandine: include light armors with small metal studs, plates, or rings sewn in. Examples: Brigandine armor, studded leather, ring mail.

Chain Shirt: include a variety of light chain armors. Example: lorica hamata

Hide Armor: include heavier leathers, hides, woods, and other usually non-metallic armors.

Scale Mail: include a variety of armors containing smaller scale-like metal plates layered for greater protection than brigandines. Examples: lorica squamata, lamellar, scale armor, and fuller, more robust brigandine suits.

Banded Armor: includes armors with larger metal strips applied to higher quality leather and chain bases. These large metal strips are segmented or layered for better mobility. Banded mail, splint mail, and lorica segmentata fit in this category.

Plate Armor: you get the gist.

Full Plate Armor: OMG. MOAR METAL!

Then there are the Special materials that can be used to make masterwork armor. Here are a couple options for both metal and organic armors.

Mithral and Displacer Beast hide: Increase Max Dex by 1.
Adamantine and Dragonhide: DR 1d6 per hit.

Add 5,000gp for a special material.

What do you think?

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

I'm totally fine with that, but then what would go in the 500gp light armor slot?

It would probably be a form of mastercraft leather and hide armor with a few selective pieces of metal riveted in. I'd have to look into it.

 

[Izumi]

Historic, of course. It's our baseline for the fantastic. I'd do something like this:

Padded Cloth 11 + Dex (+4 Max) -1 to hp total when worn.
Leather Armor 12 + Dex (+3 Max) -2 to hp total when worn.
Brigandine/Ring Armor 13 + Dex (+2 Max) -3 to hp total when worn.
Scale/Lamellar Armor 14 + Dex (+1 Max) -4 to hp total when worn.
Maile 15 (No Dex) -4 to hp total when worn.
Plated Maile/Laminar Armor 16 (No Dex) -5 hp total when worn.
Plate Armor 17 (No Dex) -5 to hp total when worn.
Small Shield +1 AC, -1 to hp total when worn.
Medium Shield +2 AC, -1 Dex bonus, -3 to hp total when worn.
Large Shield +3 AC, -2 Dex bonus, -5 to hp total when worn.

Combintation Armors could be made by adding the AC of each type together and dividing by total number of types. Round up and down as necessary, of course.

Okegawa dou gusoku (A common Footman/Retainer armor of late Sengoku)
Cloth 11 + Brigandine 13 + Plated Maile 16 + Plate Armor 17 = 57/4 = 14 AC (+1 Max Dex) -4 hp when worn.

Costs in silver/gold for each armor should also reflect history as much as possible.

I'd just give magical armors an increase in AC/Max dex bonus allowed and decrease in hp cost as I considered appropriate. Obviously, silver/gold costs for such rare artifacts would be immense.

Mithril Maile 16 + Dex (Max +1) -2 to hp total when worn.

 

[Hussar]

Izumi, why am I losing hp for wearing heavier armors? Or am I misreading something?

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

Izumi, why am I losing hp for wearing heavier armors? Or am I misreading something?

I think he's giving armor damage reduction, which has long been advocated by people who want more believable armor. My only criticism of that list is that the damage reduction doesn't scale with character level like damage and hit points do.

 

[Sunseeker]

Historical accuracy is for products attempting to replicate history.

Since replicating human history is not the design of D&D, merely one of it's many uses, historical replication should not be a primary design goal.

 

[Steely_Dan]

Since replicating human history is not the design of D&D

Some of those 2nd Ed Historical Reference books were, but, yeah, in general D&D is not about historical accuracy, but you can implement it.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Let's forget about spiked chains.

Seconded. Or nthed.

They are fine as Dragonlance Gnome/Kender comic relief, but can easily be re-fluffed from a real weapon if someone really wants them.

Can we foget about Kender too please?

Of course, armour isn't really going to help you when getting smacked upside the head with a Buick.

Depends. If it's good enough armour it will hold together. You'll be sent flying, sure. But you'll be protected from sharp edges, from whiplash, and from most things except being rattled around like a pea in a can as you go flying or driven into the ground like a tent peg.

And on the OP, I'd prefer armour types to be real things rather than made up. THere are enough types of armour out there after all.

 

[Steely_Dan]

1) Can we foget about Kender too please?


2) Depends. If it's good enough armour it will hold together. You'll be sent flying, sure. But you'll be protected from sharp edges, from whiplash, and from most things except being rattled around like a pea in a can as you go flying or driven into the ground like a tent peg.

1) Never!


2) Total, but the armour can exacerbate the damage, metal plates gouging into your clavicle, etc.

 

[Gadget]

I don't have a strong preference for realistic armour vs. more fantastic stuff, as long as we aren’t going too far out on the fantastic branch. I've always felt that D&D, for much of its history, has been a little bit too granular in the armour department. Just like we don't really need the plethora of pole arms that Gygax was enamoured with in First Edition (though they undoubtedly existed in history in one form or another) I don't think it adds much to a game where after the first level or two you just find the right type of armour for your character type (light vs heavier) and upgrade with master work /magic for the rest of your career. In fact, I'm kind of disappointed they are bringing back the medium armour category. I mean, there is only so many meaningful mechanical designations for armour, after that you can flavor it how you wish--ultra historical or out there fantasy (leather treated with Ryan Seacrest's hair gel + 10 AC).

Now as for weapons, I'm all for getting rid of Spiked Chains & Dearth Maul double-swords. Or the my-new-greatsword-is-better-than-your-greatsword flavour of the month that seemed to be going on for a while.

 

[Neonchameleon]

2) Total, but the armour can exacerbate the damage, metal plates gouging into your clavicle, etc.

If case-hardened steel gouges into your clavicle despite the presence of decent paudrons then one of two things is happening. Either you would have been eviscerated by the blow or you're facing armour piercing attacks that would have punched a small hole in you and gone out the other side.

And I take it you mean never forget Kender as in the "Never Again!" sense?

 

[Klaus]

I think the armor table should be cleaned up and condensed. Armor from different periods of time is fine, but the table got filled with some pretty redundant types just to fill out the AC 10 to 0 progression. Banded Mail, Splint Mail and Plate should all be the same armor (the metal parts covering the chainmail joints is just shaped differently), for instance. Same with Studded Leather and Ring Mail.

 

[Izumi]

Izumi, why am I losing hp for wearing heavier armors? Or am I misreading something?

It's a single and temporary reduction in your character's overall hp total that lasts only as long as he/she wears the armor on their person. It represents the fortitude and endurance necessary to mimic the effect of wearing and fighting in these armors for long periods of time.

I think he's giving armor damage reduction, which has long been advocated by people who want more believable armor. My only criticism of that list is that the damage reduction doesn't scale with character level like damage and hit points do.

Armor both prevents you from being struck, and reduces the damage of strikes to some extent. Therefore, I think the random damage die already takes damage reduction into consideration by it's spread. Static (non-magically granted) damage bonuses are kinda irritating to me by consequence.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I'm happy to see some out-dated armours in the table if they support world-building (past eras and cheaper types for mass production). The armour table should not just be about the PCs but also tell a tale.

I've heard it mentioned but I would like to see a more granular hierarchy of armours in the absence of assumed +1 to +5 magic versions. If my PC starts with a suit of chain, I'd quite like to upgrade with greaves & bracers etc before eventually wearing a suit of plate.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

Armor both prevents you from being struck, and reduces the damage of strikes to some extent. Therefore, I think the random damage die already takes damage reduction into consideration by it's spread. Static (non-magically granted) damage bonuses are kinda irritating to me by consequence.

I could see that if different armors changed which die was rolled for damage or if an unarmored target always took maximum damage. But I don't think that's what random damage was meant to reflect.

If we were going to model this, I would suggest something akin to the Fighter's parry maneuver, but somehow modified by the target's hit dice.