This is an extremely good reason to keep archaic items in circulation in a fantasy campaign. It also adds a level of immediate and interesting flavor to magic items, in a very low cost way. Plus, armor and weapons that have been effective in the past may stick around for a surprisingly long period of time.
D&D 5E Traditional or Historial Arms and Armor
- Thread starter Jeff Carlsen
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This is an extremely good reason to keep archaic items in circulation in a fantasy campaign. It also adds a level of immediate and interesting flavor to magic items, in a very low cost way. Plus, armor and weapons that have been effective in the past may stick around for a surprisingly long period of time.
ZombieRoboNinja
First Post
The central conceit of the game is the incredibly unrealistic idea that a person's inherent talent and/or training mean more to their combat effectiveness than doors their equipment. (Ask any martial arts master whether he'd feel confident fighting barehanded against a guy 100 feet away with a gun and you'll get a very different view.) Given this D&D conceit, it makes sense that your specific choice of armor and weapons is a matter of personal style - when you can cut through five enemies with one blow and get stabbed a dozen times without slowing down, you migh as well pick the armor that accommodates your movement the best (or goes with your hair).
Hussar
Legend
Yeah, I'm going to go with "Let D&D be fantasy" and not historical reenactment.
I mean, heck, while spiked chains may be wonky, there's all sorts of utterly bizarre weapons out there like sword belts and whatnot. I'm not about to jump up and down screaming that some non-human society (like gnomes) creates weapons never seen in history on earth.
I mean, heck, while spiked chains may be wonky, there's all sorts of utterly bizarre weapons out there like sword belts and whatnot. I'm not about to jump up and down screaming that some non-human society (like gnomes) creates weapons never seen in history on earth.
Remathilis
Legend
Here is my three wishes for Next weapons, armor, and other gear.
1.) It should reflect real world arms and armor, but not be strictly limited to any particular time or place. I have no problems with lamellar armor, scimitars, nunchucks, greatswords, rapiers, and hide armor all being for sale in the same town. D&D is a anachronism of fantasy, it doesn't need to be accurate. I'm less forgiving on things that didn't exist, either due to historical fallacy (splint) or being utterly fantastical (mecurial greatswords).
2.) Its stats should be derived for balance. I really don't care if you could do cartwheels in plate or cut a tank in half with a katana, I want armor to have some trade off for better protection and no weapon being utterly superior to all others. In other words, I don't mind it LOOKING real world, I want the stats crafted to keep balance.
3.) I never want to see a "fill in the numbers" item. There were lots of items in 3e which were developed to fit a certain damage die/crit mod/damage type paradigm. Don't do this. I don't want to see super-spears, stab-axes, or other nonsense.
Other than that, I'm fair. I just don't want to return to an era of clearly superior weapons/armor and everything else is junk.
1.) It should reflect real world arms and armor, but not be strictly limited to any particular time or place. I have no problems with lamellar armor, scimitars, nunchucks, greatswords, rapiers, and hide armor all being for sale in the same town. D&D is a anachronism of fantasy, it doesn't need to be accurate. I'm less forgiving on things that didn't exist, either due to historical fallacy (splint) or being utterly fantastical (mecurial greatswords).
2.) Its stats should be derived for balance. I really don't care if you could do cartwheels in plate or cut a tank in half with a katana, I want armor to have some trade off for better protection and no weapon being utterly superior to all others. In other words, I don't mind it LOOKING real world, I want the stats crafted to keep balance.
3.) I never want to see a "fill in the numbers" item. There were lots of items in 3e which were developed to fit a certain damage die/crit mod/damage type paradigm. Don't do this. I don't want to see super-spears, stab-axes, or other nonsense.
Other than that, I'm fair. I just don't want to return to an era of clearly superior weapons/armor and everything else is junk.
howandwhy99
Adventurer
Both.
I'd like armor to be indicative of the environment and have it be the same thing.
Scaly lizards have natural scale mail
Rhinos have plate armor
Some humanoids have natural leather
Substances matter. Not only for how well they protect, but also for how they can be affected. (Burn, heat metal, insulate, etc.)
Historical armor would be piecemeal, so it will be complicated by default.
I'd like armor to be indicative of the environment and have it be the same thing.
Scaly lizards have natural scale mail
Rhinos have plate armor
Some humanoids have natural leather
Substances matter. Not only for how well they protect, but also for how they can be affected. (Burn, heat metal, insulate, etc.)
Historical armor would be piecemeal, so it will be complicated by default.
Both I guess. I want traditional DnD armours, but with a little nod to reality. Say instead of 'studded leather' it should be listed as 'brigandine/studded leather'.
I pretty much agree with Remalthis, how it works in game is more important than any link to history. Price for example should ignore history in favor of balance.
That said, I'd love to see a true historical system. I just don't think that system is DnD. Perhaps a splat book could show alternate tables focused on history instead of balance.
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I pretty much agree with Remalthis, how it works in game is more important than any link to history. Price for example should ignore history in favor of balance.
That said, I'd love to see a true historical system. I just don't think that system is DnD. Perhaps a splat book could show alternate tables focused on history instead of balance.
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I've never played a game set in historical earth, so no don't entirely want historical weapons and armour.
however i did vote the "historical" option (perhaps by mistake) because i do want at least a bit more of a nod towards realism. C'mon anyone who's swung an axe must know that a double ax is probably the dumbest thing this side of a double sided gun(it shoots backwards and forwards at the same time!).
however in a very non realistic way i want all weapons (the ones on the list at least) to be viable character choices. so i guess i don't know what i want.
also i would like to point out that it wasn't until 3rd edition that they devaited from the semi-historical model to the wuxia/fantasy model.
however i did vote the "historical" option (perhaps by mistake) because i do want at least a bit more of a nod towards realism. C'mon anyone who's swung an axe must know that a double ax is probably the dumbest thing this side of a double sided gun(it shoots backwards and forwards at the same time!).
however in a very non realistic way i want all weapons (the ones on the list at least) to be viable character choices. so i guess i don't know what i want.
also i would like to point out that it wasn't until 3rd edition that they devaited from the semi-historical model to the wuxia/fantasy model.
Sound of Azure
Contemplative Soul
Somewhere in the middle
I'm happy to keep to D&D's happy anachronistic list of weapons, armours, and gear. I'm a fan of more esoteric, fantastical equipment, but that's not going to fit in every game. Therefore, I'd go somewhere middle of the road (ie, anachronistic and fantastic, with a nod to realism), with additional supplements/expansions for a more gonzo-style game or for a more subdued/historical game. That way I an have gear that fits, no matter what kind of D&D game I want to run or play in.
I'm happy to keep to D&D's happy anachronistic list of weapons, armours, and gear. I'm a fan of more esoteric, fantastical equipment, but that's not going to fit in every game. Therefore, I'd go somewhere middle of the road (ie, anachronistic and fantastic, with a nod to realism), with additional supplements/expansions for a more gonzo-style game or for a more subdued/historical game. That way I an have gear that fits, no matter what kind of D&D game I want to run or play in.
The problem with historical weapons in D&D is that weapons mainly evolved to counter the prominent armor of that time or to make them more easy to handle/produce.
Both things do not apply in D&D as armors provide flat AC and no weapon has specific bonuses or penalties against certain armors. Characters in D&D can wield weapon without much effort as long as it is contained in their class package and because of the unhealthy obsession to balance D&D developed weapons are not strictly superior to other weapons even if they were historically.
Also many groups gloss over things like weight and even ammunition count.
Both things do not apply in D&D as armors provide flat AC and no weapon has specific bonuses or penalties against certain armors. Characters in D&D can wield weapon without much effort as long as it is contained in their class package and because of the unhealthy obsession to balance D&D developed weapons are not strictly superior to other weapons even if they were historically.
Also many groups gloss over things like weight and even ammunition count.
trancejeremy
Adventurer
Part of the problem is that the terminology changes, which can be confusing.
At least according to Wikipedia, Splint Mail is now called "Plated Mail"
And while Banded Mail may not actually have existed, at one time they thought it did. But why is it so weird to believe an armor that might have existed might exist in an fantasy world that has so many creatures from mythology and folkmore that really exist? Why not extend that to armor?
At least according to Wikipedia, Splint Mail is now called "Plated Mail"
And while Banded Mail may not actually have existed, at one time they thought it did. But why is it so weird to believe an armor that might have existed might exist in an fantasy world that has so many creatures from mythology and folkmore that really exist? Why not extend that to armor?
Jeff Carlsen
Adventurer
I certainly don't have a problem with that, but I'd definitely like to see those origins in the description.
In a way, I see it akin to the organization and ecology sections of a monster entry.
Though, at the same time, combining splinted mail and banded mail makes a certain amount of sense as well. They're much the same principles.
Jeff Carlsen
Adventurer
A module for this would be awesome. Perhaps, eventually, there should be a book of gear that is filled with detail and optional rules for those who like that sort of thing. I'd buy it on general principle, even if I never used it.
Hussar
Legend
The other problem with historical vs fantasy armors is that, in game, it tends to break down. Real world history never had to deal with 100 foot lizards chomping down on you. Or giant freaks of nature bear hugging you, trying to rip you apart.
Take the idea of spiked armor. Sure, it makes almost no sense if you are fighting someone with a sword - it's just helping the other guy. But, if I'm hunting owlbears, spiked armor makes a lot more sense. The only problem is, unlike the real world where specific tools would be used for specific jobs, D&D presumes that once you put on one suit of armor, you're not going to change that until something "better" comes along.
Take the idea of spiked armor. Sure, it makes almost no sense if you are fighting someone with a sword - it's just helping the other guy. But, if I'm hunting owlbears, spiked armor makes a lot more sense. The only problem is, unlike the real world where specific tools would be used for specific jobs, D&D presumes that once you put on one suit of armor, you're not going to change that until something "better" comes along.
Ahnehnois
First Post
I am not a history buff or combat expert by any means, but I was just researching weapons for an NPC and found the search results on weapon v armor dynamics quite interesting (and not at all captured by the rules). Definitely too complicated for some (probably including me), but I could see it being done well as an add-on.
Hussar
Legend
Again, the problem with the weapon vs armor table is that not every group fights humanoids all the time. What is the equivalent armor for a dragon's hide? Giant crocodile? Ogre skin? Troll skin? etc.
Without taking monsters into account, the rules would have a serious uphill battle trying to be used.
Without taking monsters into account, the rules would have a serious uphill battle trying to be used.
For me, that's not the problem with weapons-versus-armour tables. We could go back to the original meaning of "class" in "armor class", and describe all armoured protections that way. RoleMaster did this for example, and all it involves is taking a different view of what the number on the stat block should be (for starters you need to separate out defences due to agility or magic).
The problem is comparing attacker versus defender traits and adjusting results in so much detail. It's far too time-consuming and fiddly to be fun to play for me.
Steely_Dan
First Post
That hardly is a problem. Leather is still leather. It might be stronger but the same weapons are effective against it than other leather armor.
The only real problem is the effectiveness of armor against monsters. Against giant clubs, dragons etc. no armor would really protect you.
Steely_Dan
First Post
Of course, armour isn't really going to help you when getting smacked upside the head with a Buick.
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