Training Costs to Level Up

[shadzar]

The one severe problem with this idea is this: how does the party divide their treasure? If for whatever reason they don't divide it evenly, you've got a potentially insurmountable party balance issue that will only get worse over time.

Why? The players somehow are no longer balanced against the encounters? Well the DM has methods to tailor the encounters with 4th edition, so there should really be no issues of balance. The DM just adjusts accordingly.

OR do you mean where the players are playing competitively as opposed to, the right way, cooperatively?

Unless you have someone fall way behind for some reason, then there should be no problem. With 4th edition unified levels, there is relative ease in seeing what the party level is, so encounters can be scaled just right for them.

Not that I approve of the system you are trying to use in the case of this thread, but think the problem you see is not really a problem.

 

[Saeviomagy]

If the PCs have nothing to do with their wealth, won't they automatically use it interacting with NPCs? Even if they never spend it and just sleep on a massive pile of gold, you can always have people come and ask to borrow it or whatnot.

As for levelling speed - remove XP for monsters, add it for story goals, then pace adventures however you want.

This has the following advantages:
1. The PCs will always be the right level for the adventure
2. The PCs can take side-treks doing their own personal stuff in between adventures without it levelling them up
3. It explains why NPCs don't level up from working as rat-catchers or the like

Don't force downtime - just have nothing happen. It's a lot smoother than "well, the evil cultists are performing the ritual as we speak, but we're taking a holiday so bob the fighter can spend 6 weeks levelling up".

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

If the PCs have nothing to do with their wealth, won't they automatically use it interacting with NPCs?

Not in some campaigns, especially if the players are 3.x-trained. I know a GM will have a really hard time making any of my characters spend money they don't need to. Thieves' guild comes by demanding a cut of my loot? I tell them I'm not a member, don't use them for anything, and I have three [or however many] powerful friends who will help me out. (And by powerful, I'm not talking politics.)

Even if they never spend it and just sleep on a massive pile of gold, you can always have people come and ask to borrow it or whatnot.

Shout no, and if that fails, threaten to kill them. (Well, that's some PCs. Some PCs will see the benefits of becoming bankers, and hiring trustworthy managers to take care of things while they're gone.)

As for levelling speed - remove XP for monsters, add it for story goals, then pace adventures however you want.

This has the following advantages:
1. The PCs will always be the right level for the adventure
2. The PCs can take side-treks doing their own personal stuff in between adventures without it levelling them up
3. It explains why NPCs don't level up from working as rat-catchers or the like

Don't force downtime - just have nothing happen. It's a lot smoother than "well, the evil cultists are performing the ritual as we speak, but we're taking a holiday so bob the fighter can spend 6 weeks levelling up".

That's a pretty cool, positive way of handling things.

 

[pemerton]

OR do you mean where the players are playing competitively as opposed to, the right way, cooperatively?

I think this is what he meant, except I also think that Lanefan thinks competitively is one version of "the right way"!

 

[Lanefan]

Why? The players somehow are no longer balanced against the encounters?

The *players* aren't going to be balanced against the encounters in the best of cases. Their *characters*, on the other hand, might be.

Well the DM has methods to tailor the encounters with 4th edition, so there should really be no issues of balance. The DM just adjusts accordingly.

OR do you mean where the players are playing competitively as opposed to, the right way, cooperatively?

What is this "right way" you speak of?

Wander around this board long enough and you'll come to realize there's no such thing as a "right way".

And sometimes it comes down to every person for him-herself, even within an adventuring party. Not every character (or player) is altruistic.

Unless you have someone fall way behind for some reason, then there should be no problem. With 4th edition unified levels, there is relative ease in seeing what the party level is, so encounters can be scaled just right for them.

Encounters can be scaled for any party in any edition. That's not what I'm getting at here, though.

I'm talking about in-party balance. I've seen it happen, where one character manages to get much wealthier than the rest simply by only-somewhat-intentionally fleecing them during treasure division.

But even if the wealth is divided evenly, there can still be level-balance issues with the cash-for-ExP proposal. An example:

A party of 4 has come back from the field with a treasury consisting of 3 magic items and a reasonable pile of stuff that can be turned into g.p. Each of the magic items is suitable for one of the PCs, so each does the obvious and claims the appropriate one; the share values are balanced out with a bit of cash. The 4th guy gets all cash.

The 4th guy can now turn around and plow that cash into ExP, up to whatever arbitrary maximum you allow. He's now half a level or more higher than the rest of the party. Repeat this a few times and you've got a significant level disparity; which while not a big deal in 1e-2e, I gather is a problem in 3e-4e.

And none of this even begins to consider wealth acquired outside the party (or from it, via theft) e.g. a Thief picking pockets while in town, a Bard doing some lounge gigs on the side, etc.

Lan-"still wondering what is the right way to play"-efan

 

[shadzar]

I think this is what he meant, except I also think that Lanefan thinks competitively is one version of "the right way"!

While it can be for specially designed games, using the character creation rules the norm is people work together as PCs to overcome the stuff thrown at them by the DM....

 

[shadzar]

I'm talking about in-party balance. I've seen it happen, where one character manages to get much wealthier than the rest simply by only-somewhat-intentionally fleecing them during treasure division.

Isn't that the rogue's job, wait 4th edition, the rogue's "role"?

That would not really be a problem with the training method, but a problem with the party if they allowed it WITH that training method. Well even if they allowed it without the training, and were upset about it, they only have themselves to blame.

Rogue:
-one for you (fighter), one for me
-two for you, one two for me
-three for you, one two three for me...

 

[Lanefan]

While it can be for specially designed games, using the character creation rules the norm is people work together as PCs to overcome the stuff thrown at them by the DM....

And while doing that they also work to overcome the stuff thrown at them by each other. At such times, I really do become nothing more than a referee and rules arbiter.

Lan-"no special game design is required to achieve this, believe me"-efan

 

[Jhaelen]

Isn't that the rogue's job, wait 4th edition, the rogue's "role"?

Not really. I'd also like to note that 4e roles strictly define a character's role in combat.

 

[Janx]

so we've got 3 or 4 ideas on the style of mechanic for training costs.

How much money are we talking about?

That would help generate ideas on explaining the cost.

Shadazar sounds like he has some specific organizations and expenses in mind like guilds.

I don't have any such "regulatory agencies" in my campaigns.

I think a fighter would be a good example of unregulated agent. You pick up a sword, and you could study on your own. I supposed a thief could too, but in the city, the various gangs would probably notice.

I can envision in both of our styles, that a fighter could have expenses:
armor repair and upkeep
weapon repair and sharpening
wooden practice weapons (I posted a link to Hollowearthswordworks before)
training session with a weapons master
regular sparring/training at fighting school

Though we've seen plenty of movie montages where training is done by the mentor NPC in the party until he dies, And the repair and upkeep isn't really a training cost.

if nothing else, the last 2 of mine are how a PC might buy some XP, as odds are good the school or master owns the practice gear.

From there, you could charge more per level, because the technique being taught is more advanced and thus "worth more"