training

[ph0rk]

Yes, Classes are an abstraction. However, these abstractions contain specifics within them: Skills, Feats, Spells, and other abilities.

So are you in the training for new classes/skills camp or the training for every level camp?

I'm squarely in the 'it is a waste of time' camp, unless as Chupacabra noted it is used for plot hooks and the like.

Not if there's already an in-game justification. Did you tell your GM you were practicing? Did you try to use Tumble at all during the game?

Without sounding silly, tumble can't be used untrained. (yeah yeah). I dislike that particular mechanic, but unless my ranger/rogue started as a rogue, he can't tumble at 1st level (unless he put cross-class points into tumble, but as i'm taking a level of rogue anyway, that is just wasteful. Had WotC chosen not to remove the apprentice rules and optional start with 1/2 of each of 2 levels rules it would be a nonissue for that particular character)

I hate training, and most fans of epic fantasy (fiction) should too, as it rarely happens once the story gets moving.

I hate forced training for new classes or skills only even worse, as it is little more than a penalty for characters that don't want to be stuck with a base class as is.

What next, training for cleave?

 

[Bendris Noulg]

So are you in the training for new classes/skills camp or the training for every level camp?

Training for new Skills/Feats/Abilities camp. Classes and Levls are abstracts.

Without sounding silly, tumble can't be used untrained. (yeah yeah).

Sorry... House rule slipped in.

I hate training, and most fans of epic fantasy (fiction) should too, as it rarely happens once the story gets moving.

Jason, Achilles, and Asclepios all trained under the centaur Cheiron; Cheiron also died to allow Prometheus to bring us fire that all men would learn from his sacrifice.

Cu Chullain studied within the fighting school of Sgathaich.

Beowulf was invited to study witchcraft from Busla (although he turned down the offer because it was "an effeminizing practice").

In the Volsunga Saga, the character Sigurd has a tutor named Regin.

Even in modern day fiction, training is a regular feature; from Garion learning the arts of Sorcery and battle in The Belgariad to the seemingly endless training schedule portrayed in the various Dragonball series.

While I fully acknowledge your views, don't let your views dictate to you what others should or should not like.

I hate forced training for new classes or skills only even worse, as it is little more than a penalty for characters that don't want to be stuck with a base class as is.

What next, training for cleave?

Yep. As is, though, there is no penalty involved unless you simply choose to view it that way. With the right players, this kind of stuff is all considered part of the game and is desired and welcomed.

 

[I'm A Banana]

It's a trade-off, and it depends upon your campaign.

A more action-oriented, chain-of-thought, plot-point-to-the-next, mile-a-minute kind of campaign would feel bogged down by training rules. They don't want to bugger with some NPC mook just to get to the next HD. When you're camping overnight on the cusp of war, you really can't be bothered to run back into town and fork over some gold so some old codger with a wooden stick can beat you upside the face a few times for your extra hp. It's just going to interrupt the flow.

A more gradual, one-adventure-a-week, slowly-revealed-metaplot, plenty-of-non-killing-NPC-interaction kind of campaign would greatly benefit from training rules, since it gives the PC's a good reason to go about in the town, make connections, and gives them NPC's to care about (usually a good thing). Far from bogging down the adventure, it's how they spend the time they're not saving the world from evil -- that doesn't happen every week. Spending that week doing nothing but fighting an orc or two shouldn't really give you a level, but conversing with the Duchess doesn't really give you BAB. Here, training helps tie the PC's to the world, while giving them a reason to get better at combat for doing non-combat things.

IMC, I use a sort of 'class tree' that allows them to train in classes and abilities related to the ones they already possess without a mentor. Feats are minor enough and rare enough that I can allow them free reign -- even if the Fighter doesn't know how to cast magic, if he spent his third level feat for Empower Spell, that's fine. His character trained himself with what it would take for his character -- not every Empowering works the same way, after all.

But if that Fighter wanted to take a level in Sorc, he may have to take a level in a different class, first (specifically, in this case, Aristocrat). This is to represent the change in direction he's taking. Or, he could find a Sorc mentor, and just level up as a Sorc next time.

Since I start out my PC's at level 5, they can pretty much have levels in everything they're expected to eventually.

Of course, I also provide incentive for mentors in the same way I provide incentive for organizations, churches, and the like. I introduce new feats, spells, prestige classes, etc. specific to these organizations that those outside of the organization do not have access to. So that Fighter may have a mentor in the Sodkillers, an organization that preaches survival of the fittest. Because of this, he can take several Sodkiller-specific feats that those without such a mentor would not have access to.

But if they have no interest in Sodkiller feats, they can simply be a Fighter, and have no problems with it.

 

[glass]

It should be noted that Gary Gygax didn't use the training rules he included in the 1E DMG, except on those occasions when a PC gained a level extremely rapidly through a large windfall of treasure.

This is more or less what I do. The PCs can train as they go along (in the background) as long as they don't level more than once per 30 (game) days. It is just, in a campaign I played in recently we went from 2nd level to 14th in less than a year. That really troubled my SoD circuits, so I have taken steps to avoid it now I am DMing.


glass.

 

[Belen]

Never used it and would not know how to implement it and make it fun. I tend to disagree with the whole concept of training. I think it is fine for PrCs, but normal class levels and abilities are abstract in nature.

A few skills should probably have some form of training. Knowledge skills come to mind. However, if a character told me during play that they were studying etc, then I would think that a fine method of training without bogging the game down in actual rote training for a level.

If anything, a GM should provide downtime in order to allow PCs to get the things they need. Class skills, abilities, and feats should be an "understood" consequence of downtime, while specialized things should be worked out with the GM.

Ok, I might have come off somewhat confusing there, but I think you can get my basic thought process.

 

[doghead]

I started writing this as a DM, but on reflection I think its easier to write it as a player. As a player, I generate characters to reflect the background and I don't like the idea of taking skills/feats/classes that have no relationship to what has gone before. I prefer to play with a DM who will work with me to find a path for the character to the desired end, rather than one who just lets you take whatever so long as you have the prereqs. Thus the character lives and strives and sometimes, fails.