Trimming the Fat: Three Ability Scores

[Felon]

Hi Felon,

I appreciate your desire to avoid threadcrapping, but I'm afraid stipulations that those who don't agree with you are not welcome in this thread isn't appropriate on EN World. Conversely, the recently created thread which appears to exists merely to ridicule this one is equally, if not more, innapropriate.

EN World is a discussion forum, and contrary views are welcome; nobody has ownership over a thread. I'm closing the other thread which references this one negatively, and asking you to accept that you can't control which opinions are permitted in this thread.

As always, everybody keep it civil. Thanks.

Fair enough. For what it's worth, it was my intent to politely concede the validity of contrasting points of view from the get-go. My hope was to avoid the kind of negative threadcrapping that sucks the energy from threads--let's face it, most folks don't disagree in a constructive way that promotes discussion, but are rather more along the lines of "I just stopped by to say I disagree and I dismiss your ideas--bye!". I don't know what the point of it is, I just know it's popular.

It's interesting that there was such rancor at the notion of telling folks that you already know some of'em don't agree even with even the most basic premise here, so please restrain the urge to attack the idea. Some folks were so unable to contain their snark that we got a whole new thread taking cheap shots. Kinda funny, in a nasty sort of way. Like I said, it's all a matter of taste. Perhaps by being polite in a clinical sort of way it conveyed a supercilious attitude. I'll make a note.

 

[Felon]

EDIT--I need a new Enter button.

 

[Eldorian]

3 stats? 2! Meat and Gray Matter! Bonus points for knowing where these come from!

 

[Sir Sebastian Hardin]

Just my 2 cents:
I'm really bothered by the ref-int divorse.
Would it be better if Reflex was "Dexterity or Wisdom" after all... Perception is based on wisdom, and it is more related to being aware of incoming things.

That would leave us with Charisma and Intelligence for Willpower. It is not so strongly related, but I still see it more logical than Int-based Reflex. Your force of personality and/or your wit help to covercome this kind of hazard. You are too smart to fall for that.

 

[Sphyre]

let's face it, most folks don't disagree in a constructive way that advances the thread, but are rather more along the lines of "I just stopped by to say I disagree and I dismiss your ideas--bye!".

I once had a post on the 3e WotC forums that was an attempt to do away with the level adjustment system. Many people came in and said "Why fix what isn't broken?" and I said "Well, It may not be broken for your game, it is broken for my game. That's why I have this thread."

After about 150 replies I said "Ok, now that all the people have said 'your idea sucks' have left, can we get to being productive now?" Many people stayed to weigh in their two cents while the thread went on to be productive, but ultimately, I didn't have enough time to sustain a freelance project of that magnitude.

I think it's a natural process of a thread that is intended to be a community project... but it has to evolve into it, rather than simply start out as one.

 

[Nymrohd]

Edit: Weird, a reply for an other thread ended up showing here.

 

[Felon]

Just my 2 cents:
I'm really bothered by the ref-int divorse.
Would it be better if Reflex was "Dexterity or Wisdom" after all... Perception is based on wisdom, and it is more related to being aware of incoming things.

That would leave us with Charisma and Intelligence for Willpower. It is not so strongly related, but I still see it more logical than Int-based Reflex. Your force of personality and/or your wit help to covercome this kind of hazard. You are too smart to fall for that.

Here's my problem: ultimately, I don't see the gain in having two ability scores competing to provide the same benefit. It feels like a granny shot, like they're throwing up their hands and saying "I can't think of anything good to do with Intelligence or Charisma--let's just have it override some other scores' benefits. Close enough for government work." The game has been so streamlined, that we just don't need a single skill to represent intellect or personality; we've got a pretty decent skills system.

Actually, maybe it's Int and Cha that should be concatenated.

 

[Nymrohd]

Just my 2 cents:
I'm really bothered by the ref-int divorse.
Would it be better if Reflex was "Dexterity or Wisdom" after all... Perception is based on wisdom, and it is more related to being aware of incoming things.

That would leave us with Charisma and Intelligence for Willpower. It is not so strongly related, but I still see it more logical than Int-based Reflex. Your force of personality and/or your wit help to covercome this kind of hazard. You are too smart to fall for that.

Actually using Intelligence for certain reflex saves was a DMG optional rule in 3.5. When you need to do a purely mental reflex, use your reflex base save modified by your Intelligence.

Awareness and reaction are not the same thing. A High Wisdom/Low Intellect person would notice many details and behaviours however you would not have the reasoning skills to make quick deductions. Both dexterity and intellgence modify reflex saves to simulate reaction time rather than perception of effect.

I will concede that actual reflexes involve all 3; perception, deduction, reaction. All three are involved in how you react but ultimately they do so to a variable degree and in the high awareness enviroment of constant danger of cinematic combat, you can assume heightened perception more readily than muscle reflex or lightning deduction.

On a final note an exercise in this reasoning. Describe me a reflex save based on each of the three scores. That will help you see which two are the most credible.

 

[Sir Sebastian Hardin]

Actually using Intelligence for certain reflex saves was a DMG optional rule in 3.5. When you need to do a purely mental reflex, use your reflex base save modified by your Intelligence.

Awareness and reaction are not the same thing. A High Wisdom/Low Intellect person would notice many details and behaviours however you would not have the reasoning skills to make quick deductions. Both dexterity and intellgence modify reflex saves to simulate reaction time rather than perception of effect.

I will concede that actual reflexes involve all 3; perception, deduction, reaction. All three are involved in how you react but ultimately they do so to a variable degree and in the high awareness enviroment of constant danger of cinematic combat, you can assume heightened perception more readily than muscle reflex or lightning deduction.

On a final note an exercise in this reasoning. Describe me a reflex save based on each of the three scores. That will help you see which two are the most credible.

Fair enough. You are right. I think the actual problem is that right now, it doesn't matter is you are quick, as long as you are smart or vice-versa. It is just really weird that a nerdy-smart guy is just as good as dodging things as a quick, flexible guy. I think it is ok to have both Int and Dex to modify Reflexes. ANd that's the thing: BOTH should modify the defense, not one of both. This way we would have:
-A smart guy is good at donding things, because he can calculate fast and react acordingly
-A quick guy is good at dodging because he has the physical agility and grace to do so.
-A smart AND quick guy should be BETTER than the guys above. He is smart to calculate things and has the physical capacity to act acordingly fast

The same with the other defenses. When I first heard the news that each defense was related to two aiblities I thought that was a great idea, because I thought both modifiers would matter.
Both related scores should add to the defense. I think this could solve some of the posters' worries.

Maybe it would be hard to recalculate the bonus to attacks (powers), but on the fly I came up with sometnig like this:

Instead of DEFENSE = 10 + higher related modifier, i would go with
DEFENSE = 8 +modifier 1 + modifier 2 (if this modifier includes the 1/2 level bonus it would have to be different maybe only 5 instead of 8, or maybe just 0) I'm really bad at math, so please follow my point:

so it could be:
FORTITUDE: 8 + STR mod + CON mod + 1/2 level
REFLEX: 8 + DEX mod + INT mod + 1/2 level
WILL: 8 + WIS mod + CHA mod + 1/2 level

This way BOTH abilites would be relevant for a given Defense, resulting in a more believable mechanic. (I'm considering of house-ruling it this way...I really like it)

 

[Felon]

Fair enough. You are right. I think the actual problem is that right now, it doesn't matter is you are quick, as long as you are smart or vice-versa. It is just really weird that a nerdy-smart guy is just as good as dodging things as a quick, flexible guy.

Right, and likewise, Comic Book Guy and the Grammaton cleric shouldn't be equal in AC and Reflex saves just because they might both have the same IQ. The 8 Dex should be at something of a disadvantage.

This way BOTH abilites would be relevant for a given Defense, resulting in a more believable mechanic. (I'm considering of house-ruling it this way...I really like it)

Your idea for a house rule isn't bad at all, but think how compatible any house rule is going to be with the Monster Manual and other products where there would be a lot of converting to do.