Falling Icicle said:
This would mean rogues get a class bonus to AC, as they have a class bonus to Ref (+2)…?
Trimming the Fat: Three Ability Scores
- Thread starter Felon
- Start date
This would mean rogues get a class bonus to AC, as they have a class bonus to Ref (+2)…?
If this was a real issue I would agree that condensing into three scores would be rational. But I don't think it is a real issue, unless you are using a point buy. Every class will have a primary score and often 1-2 secondary scores. Those would always be the scores level-based ability increases would go and the abilities you would drop your highest rolls on. It is quite likely that between those three scores you only cover two of ability combinations. That would result in 2-3 scores plus 1 to boost the third defense for 4 scores per character. Having 2 dump stats that are different for each character is rational and even realistic outside game mechanics; people always have weaknesses. Moreover as long as classes are designed so as to spread between said abilities, there will not be a single, almost universal dump stat like Charisma is in 3e. And this does seem to be the case, though I admit it is partly conjecture.
With the absence of enhancement bonus to ability items, abilities will not range as widely as they potentially can in 3E. I expect some permanent enhancement from books in late paragon and epic tier but that is limited compared to the +6 items we have now.
Class powers, which you might well get through class training or even multiclassing, will also be based on any of the six abilities. Limiting those abilities to 3 can easily overpower multiclass builts based on the same primary score.
At the same time skills will be based on any of six abilities. Several mechanics will be based on skill and ability checks. Starting hit points are based on Con already, and we don't yet know about initiative (or exactly how AC works).
In conclusion I do not think that the 4E system encourages dump stats beyond what would be accepted in character development. It simply bolsters the defensive scores through a mechanic, which is necessary on a system that values survivability and combat endurance in very long combats. I think consolidating the abilities into a Tri-Stat system would strip part of the ability to simulate a wide range of activities and very likely unbalance several multiclassing options.
I don't mind killing sacred cows; I'm quite the carnivore. But I think this one is better left alive.
With the absence of enhancement bonus to ability items, abilities will not range as widely as they potentially can in 3E. I expect some permanent enhancement from books in late paragon and epic tier but that is limited compared to the +6 items we have now.
Class powers, which you might well get through class training or even multiclassing, will also be based on any of the six abilities. Limiting those abilities to 3 can easily overpower multiclass builts based on the same primary score.
At the same time skills will be based on any of six abilities. Several mechanics will be based on skill and ability checks. Starting hit points are based on Con already, and we don't yet know about initiative (or exactly how AC works).
In conclusion I do not think that the 4E system encourages dump stats beyond what would be accepted in character development. It simply bolsters the defensive scores through a mechanic, which is necessary on a system that values survivability and combat endurance in very long combats. I think consolidating the abilities into a Tri-Stat system would strip part of the ability to simulate a wide range of activities and very likely unbalance several multiclassing options.
I don't mind killing sacred cows; I'm quite the carnivore. But I think this one is better left alive.
Actually, I once used these as a basis for a pretty simplified rpg system I'd developed for use in a computer rpg. However, I ended up dividing each one into a passive and an active component, so I was back at 6 stats again...Saitou said:
I'd like to point out that I consider it to be a bit premature to decide that half of the stats in 4E are useless (or dump stats). We don't really know yet for what else they might be important. This is only a guess but I assume there'll be other applications of the attributes where you aren't able to simply choose the best of each pair.
I think it's questionable to assert that providing a method to min-max the ability score that's used for defenses is necessary for survivability. We've seen every indication that characters can get by with lower defenses, because the game is overall less lethal.Nymrohd said:
I already addressed in my OP what the outlook on dump-statting is. You'll have one score that determines the effectiveness of powers (as we've seen in the various previews). Con will provide some hit points, while Str won't even matter much for some melee builds (like the paladin). Pick Dex or Int for AC and Reflex, but not both (probably Dex since it adds to initiative as well, and many more skills). Wisdom and Charisima are pretty much a toss-up.
Not sure what you meant by stripping "the ability to simulate a wide range of activities".
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mach1.9pants
Hero
Nope your class bonus to Ref does not apply to AC, AFAIK, only Ref. So AC does not quite equal Ref plu armour, the first guess on these board 'cos it is very similar.Steely Dan said:
So.....
Ref = INT/DEX + class (if any) + shield + others, I suppose
AC = INT/DEX(Lt armour only) + Shield + armour + others, I suppose
Big discussions on other threads have come to this conculsion, E&OE
M1.9P
HP Dreadnought
First Post
Falling Icicle said:And there's also the part about just how utterly ridiculous this all is. Intelligence makes you better at dodging things?And don't give me the "you can calculate the trajectory of the incoming fireball" crap. All the brainpower in the world won't help you move quickly and be well-coordinated. Intelligence is, by its very definition, a *mental* attribute. Using it for physical defenses is about as utterly absurd as anything can get.
A high intelligence makes you more capable of exploiting cover, positioning, and timing effectively.
fafhrd
First Post
See: Grammaton Clerics.
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For adding Int bonus to AC? Don't you mean Grammaton wizards?fafhrd said:
I like that movie and the concept of gun-kata is interesting, but the reason the clerics stick out in memory is specifically because calculating vectors and trajectories in one's head isn't a run-of-the-mill heroic talent. In fact, I suspect they're relying on they're relying pretty heavily on their none-too-shabby Dexterity.
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