Trip is an Encounter Power now

[I'm A Banana]

As, Moochava, said.. You can describe your character attempting to trip all the time you want, you'll just get a regular melee attack (the low swing, the shove, the attempt to knock them over), you just wont have a chance to actually trip them unless you use the trip power..

Well, that's exceedingly dull. Also, it doesn't make sense that an opportunity to trip just comes up once every 5 minutes, and nowhere in between.

That'll be the time when all the conditions for a succesful trip attempt are just right (opponent is in the right position compared to you, or he is off-balance, dropped his guard, distracted, or whatever seems a reasonable explantion that a trip attempt would be successful).

Again, it's wierd to think of how regularly these come up...once a combat, but no more often than that? Seriously?

I think it's easy to grok that the trip is a challenging move. The PC's are heroes, though, and they should be able to do challenging moves. It's harder to grok that you can only do it once every 5 minutes. You're surrounded by one-legged fat men with inner ear problems, but, nope, you can only knock one down unless you rest for 5 minutes, and then you can knock down another.

3e trip fails on both a gamist level (its too good) and from a simulationist perspective (its utility in the ruleset causes it to be used far out of proportion to its effectiveness in a realistic fight).

It's not really that good, though. It's only really good with a combo, which makes me think the feat/weapon/etc. is the problem, not the trip itself.

And even so, 4e can make it better (more challenging) without making it nonsensical (only Fighters can do it, and even then, only once every 5 minutes!)

 

[Bagpuss]

The problem with Improved Trip is that it gave a free attack. If trip used a standard action and didn't give a free attack or damage, you'd have a good reason not to use it every round.

Improved Trip was only part of the problem it's not that tripping gave the character a free attack, it's that every other PC standing near the critter got an AoO as it stood up. So it was much more than one free attack.

 

[Bishmon]

Well, that's exceedingly dull. Also, it doesn't make sense that an opportunity to trip just comes up once every 5 minutes, and nowhere in between.



Again, it's wierd to think of how regularly these come up...once a combat, but no more often than that? Seriously?

I think it's easy to grok that the trip is a challenging move. The PC's are heroes, though, and they should be able to do challenging moves. It's harder to grok that you can only do it once every 5 minutes. You're surrounded by one-legged fat men with inner ear problems, but, nope, you can only knock one down unless you rest for 5 minutes, and then you can knock down another.

But if you're just looking for ways something can't work, you'll never be happy.

Let's keep it the 3E way, where a guy can trip a trained opponent every six seconds. If you've ever seen a real fight, or have any understanding of fighting, there's no way you can 'grok' that; it's wildly unrealistic.

You can either keep looking for ways things don't work, or you can try and find the way it does work and run with that.

 

[Moochava]

Well, that's exceedingly dull. Also, it doesn't make sense that an opportunity to trip just comes up once every 5 minutes, and nowhere in between.

"Dull" is everyone being allowed to trip all the time but it being mechanically inferior to a regular attack. "Dull" is a rule that causes specialists to trip with every single attack action they can make. Basically, "no meaningful options" is dull. Per-encounter powers are an attempt to get away from that sort of mechanical tedium.

Again, it's wierd to think of how regularly these come up...once a combat, but no more often than that? Seriously?

We don't know, do we? Trip might be an at-will action against enemies who have yielded combat advantage. Monks or high-level brawlers might get special at-will trip attacks. We don't know much about per-encounter powers at this point. But even if I can only trip a guy once in a fight, my need to rationalize why is on par with my need to rationalize why I can't stab an archmage with a dagger and have him die, i.e., basically nonexistent.

 

[I'm A Banana]

But if you're just looking for ways something can't work, you'll never be happy.

You've got it backwards. I see it, it doesn't seem like it works, and here's why. Specifically, here's why: "Per Encounter" sounds like an arbitrary and unrealistic limit on the amount of times that someone can try to trip someone else.

Let's keep it the 3E way, where a guy can trip a trained opponent every six seconds. If you've ever seen a real fight, or have any understanding of fighting, there's no way you can 'grok' that; it's wildly unrealistic.

I'd prefer 4e to improve the mechanic. I mean, it is a new edition, after all. And it is a mechanic that could use some improving.

From where I'm sitting, they didn't, though. I mean, they tried, but clearly, something is amiss!

You can either keep looking for ways things don't work, or you can try and find the way it does work and run with that.

OR, I can say that this is a dumb descision by the 4e designers and fix it myself.

I just wish I didn't have to do that. I wish the 4e designers could've made it better to begin with.

 

[Bishmon]

OR, I can say that this is a dumb descision by the 4e designers and fix it myself.

Awesome. Let's hear it, then. What's your perfect fix for this problem? I'm sure whatever you come up with, there won't be numerous ways to distort it to make it unrealistic.

 

[I'm A Banana]

"Dull" is everyone being allowed to trip all the time but it being mechanically inferior to a regular attack. "Dull" is a rule that causes specialists to trip with every single attack action they can make. Basically, "no meaningful options" is dull. Per-encounter powers are an attempt to get away from that sort of mechanical tedium.

All this is true, but "Per Encounter" sucks as a place for the ability to knock someone over because it doesn't mesh with the reality of knocking someone over: namely, that it doesn't just happen once every 5 minutes.

We don't know, do we? Trip might be an at-will action against enemies who have yielded combat advantage. Monks or high-level brawlers might get special at-will trip attacks. We don't know much about per-encounter powers at this point. But even if I can only trip a guy once in a fight, my need to rationalize why is on par with my need to rationalize why I can't stab an archmage with a dagger and have him die, i.e., basically nonexistent.

I thought this thread was started because trip is a per-encounter fighter power? And that is exactly my problem with it?

And good for you, you don't need to rationalize this, enjoy it. I do need to rationalize this, I won't enjoy it if I can't, and I'm discussing it on a forum made for discussing the benefits and flaws of 4e.

This is a flaw for me. Care to discuss?

 

[I'm A Banana]

Awesome. Let's hear it, then. What's your perfect fix for this problem? I'm sure whatever you come up with, there won't be numerous ways to distort it to make it unrealistic.

I don't need to make it realistic.

I need to make it believable.

And I'm starting with making it an option that can be done more than once every 5 minutes.

Because that's pretty unbelievable to me.

Heck, some people upthread have posted perfectly good rules as it is. Maybe I'll just use one of them. They may be believable enough.

 

[JosephK]

It's not really that good, though. It's only really good with a combo, which makes me think the feat/weapon/etc. is the problem, not the trip itself.

And even so, 4e can make it better (more challenging) without making it nonsensical (only Fighters can do it, and even then, only once every 5 minutes!)

I think the problem stems from you fixating on the "Every five minutes" thing. Try to think of it as something that is possible to do every once in a while (because the opportunity presents it self, in whatever form.. Be it a clumsy move on the opponents part OR an exceptional move on the players part), instead of every five minutes.


That's where the realistic rendering (ever so slightly, obviously) of a fight gets mixed with player driven storytelling. The player decides when in the fight he does something truely noteworthy (or simply when chance favors him enough that a trip attempt can be successful).

Anyway, imo neo-trip is very much an improvement over 3e tripping And I certainly hope disarm works the same way (that's alot harder to pull off than a trip though.. So if we're shooting for realism it should probably be a daily.. Although, from a gamist viewpoint, that might be a little weak).

 

[I'm A Banana]

I think the problem stems from you fixating on the "Every five minutes thing". Try to think of it as something that is possible to do every once in a while (because the oppertunity presents it self, in whatever form.. Be it a clumsy move on the opponents part OR an exceptionel move on the players part), instead of every five minutes.

It's still too hard of a limit for me. "Once In A While" is okay, "once per encounter," is artificial.

Brainflash:

I might use the recharge mechanic for a dragon's breath or something. At the beggining of their turn, roll 1d6, if it comes up a 5 or a 6, you can do it again. PC's who aren't fighters get to use the stunt system to do a lesser version of it, because it does take some training.

Or something like that.

Removes the wierdly hard limitation, keeps the fighter from doing it every round, I'm pretty content.