Trip is an Encounter Power now

[delericho]

You've been waiting YEARS to bring up this scenario, haven't you?

Absolutely. It has long been a dream of mine to do a D&D/Turtles crossover.

 

[Khaalis]

Okay, so its really hard to trip someone, so hard it requires an encounter power, but grappling them, that's easy?
Sorry, I'm just not seeing it.

In a real-world example, yes. As someone with some martial arts and martial weapon training, I have to say that tripping in actual combat (i.e. vs. another aware and trained fighter) is very difficult and requires specialized training. Even "basic" martial arts is specialized training. Grappling on the other hand is very easy. Ever seen or been in a schoolyard fight? After 2-3 "punches" they usually devolve into grapples. Even in the UFC, most bouts turn into grapples. All one has to do is grab your opponent and drag them down. I personally see no issue with grappling being easier than tripping. JMHO.

 

[Falling Icicle]

Those stating that "You should be able to attempt a trip at any time" are missing the fact that you can ONLY attempt a trip when your opponent gives you the opportunity, or you risk it all (IE failure is death), so you simply have to wait, or be prepared to abandon an attempt as soon as it is clear that it will fail, which is often well before the attempt is even started.

So basically, what you're saying is that tripping is normally not a very tactically sound idea? Okay fine, have it provoke an opportunity attack then. That would be enough to discourage abuse, and it would be fairly realistic since, as you say, attempting such a maneuver opens your defenses.

I don't like the idea of telling people that their characters can't do such simple, ordinary things just because it makes the game run smoother without it. 4e combat was supposed to be more "cinematic", with people doing cool stuff and being told "yes, you can." At least, that's what they used to say. Guess that was all just hype.

 

[Falling Icicle]

In a real-world example, yes. As someone with some martial arts and martial weapon training, I have to say that tripping in actual combat (i.e. vs. another aware and trained fighter) is very difficult and requires specialized training. Even "basic" martial arts is specialized training. Grappling on the other hand is very easy. Ever seen or been in a schoolyard fight? After 2-3 "punches" they usually devolve into grapples. Even in the UFC, most bouts turn into grapples. All one has to do is grab your opponent and drag them down. I personally see no issue with grappling being easier than tripping. JMHO.

Sure, people often go to grapples, but hell, getting knocked down in a fight is hardly an unusual thing. I've seen many people fall on their ass after being hit by a single punch. Knocking someone down is not really that hard unless they are well trained or just a lot bigger than their opponent. If a schoolyard bully can knock someone down, a D&D hero should have no problem doing so.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

So basically, what you're saying is that tripping is normally not a very tactically sound idea? Okay fine, have it provoke an opportunity attack then. That would be enough to discourage abuse, and it would be fairly realistic since, as you say, attempting such a maneuver opens your defenses.

But does an OA make it tactically "unsound" enough? And in 3E, if you take a feat or the right weapon, suddenly it's always "tactically sound"? You could forbid such a feat, but if there is a precedence for OA negating feats, how do you explain this?
And how do you describe a situation in where it's tactically appropriate, if you don't also want to simulate postures and facing in the game?

As a per encounter power, tripping means: You'll only try it if it's tactically sound. And that moment is exactly if you use the power. That's the players narrative control in the game.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Unfortunately, in 4e, they can't do this. Only the Fighter was able to learn the Trip power, and he can do it only once in the encounter - and that's assuming he learnt it at all.

Or, you know...he could just deal non-lethal in 3rd Edition...or the equivalent in 4th. Which is the way to incapacitate them without killing them.

Which also has the side effect of not bypassing hitpoints. "Can't get up from prone" is just bad monster design. It essentially creates an "I win" condition a lot like save or dies or save or suck spells. In these situations it is almost ALWAYS a better idea to go with the bypass solution than it is to just attack. It means that the PCs(or enemies) are playing two different games:

1) I attack the enemy and do 20 damage, it has 100 left.
2) I trip it, it's on the ground, it can't get up. I win.
3) I hit it for 3 con damage, 7 more and it dies.
4) I cast Slay Living, it fails and it dies.

Without the "I win" condition it instead adds more tension and more interesting combat as the PCs now actually have to avoid the attacks of the monsters for multiple rounds as they slowly chip away at the hitpoints of the enemies. There's very little tension when combat degrades down to "I trip it. That's one down. I trip it. That's 2."

 

[Li Shenron]

This is where I disagree. I do not believe the 3rd Edition designers were TRYING to get the results they did.

They approached game design from a very simulationist point of view. The idea before was "create rules that simulate real life and then end up with results that look like real life".

Mmm... somehow I have the feeling that you're thinking at "results" only in terms of balance, and already assuming that 3e should have the same balance features as 4e. I'm thinking that having a *basic* simulation properties IS a result they were looking for in 3e, and they dropped that target in 4e or at least lowered it significantly.

"Anyone can attempt a trip in real life, they just might not be good at it. So, we give them all the ability to do it but we make it hard unless they are specifically trained at it. In real life, even people who are specifically trained at tripping don't do it every attack during a combat, so that's likely what will happen with these rules."

However, the results were that people with improved trip who made their character to do it tried it almost every attack. So, it was a different result than they expected.

Probably the problem is with Improved Trip, that it should have been limited to removing the -4 and not grant extra damage.

In fact, the extra attack of Imp Trip is not necessary at all, from a believability point of view.

But there is no problem in the basic 3e rules for tripping, and neither in removing the -4.

Now, there are two ways of solving this if you want to model what happens in real life:
1. Adjust the numbers so that Trip is not longer an attractive option every round.
2. Adjust the rules so you aren't allowed to Trip every round.

The first option is EXTREMELY hard to get right as shown in 3e. Even when you think you have the numbers just right people surprise you by stacking bonuses or feats or tactics together in a way that makes the option more attractive than you expected and they do it every round again.

3. Just change Imp Trip so that it removes -4 but gives no further benefits.

Tripping an opponent sounds to me a tactic that someone would use when she's at a disadvantage (weaker) than the enemy, and wants to shift the battle to his favor. E.g. tripping could be a way for instance to hamper a monster bigger/stronger than you, that you cannot just beat by opposing your damage vs its own. Tripping could also be a good idea to slow an opponent for a round and then focus on another, or to facilitate capture, or sometimes even to catch the time to run away!

In lieu of these ideas, the only fault of 3e tripping rules is the additional damage-dealing from tripping-focused feats.

I think that turning it into an encounter class-only ability is like "throwing away the baby with the dirty water". You cannot even try your luck at it. Not only you cannot do it twice on the same opponent, but neither can you do it once to two different foes in a battle... These are limitations that turn me off, much more than Imp Trip ever did.

 

[Yaezakura]

I don't think people realize exactly how hard it is to trip someone. It's not "if you hit their leg they fall on their ass". I'm 4'11" and weigh less than 100 lbs, and I bet 95% or more of the people in this topic couldn't trip me if I let you try all day long. In the off chance you actually hit my legs, you'd have to hit them in a very specific way to make me lose my balance. And that's with me not actively fighting back against you. If I was, you may be lucky enough to find the opportunity once.

And guess what? It doesn't matter if you succeed or not. After you try it once, you will never get another chance. I've seen you try it. I know what you trying it looks like. If you try it a second time, I will stop you before you even really start. Assuming this is a small, relatively manageable battle, with only 4-6 combatants per side, if you try tripping someone else, chances are I will see you do it. And, having seen you do it, I will never give you the chance to do it to me.

That is the logic behind tripping being a per-encounter power limited only to those with specialized training. It doesn't matter how mighty the Wizard is... he's not going to be able to reliably trip even a common Kobold unless he's specifically trained to trip opponents. He can try to whack one in the leg with his staff, but 99% of the time he's not going to connect solidly with the back of its knee or a pressure point to force the kobold down. He may be mighty enough by that point to break the Kobold's leg thanks to his magically charged staff, but even that's far more likely than managing to trip it.

 

[Plane Sailing]

/Side note: In my sci-fi RPG rules, I made trip an option that can only chosen *after* you have grappled someone, since to my understanding that is the most likely circumstances for it to happen anyway.

 

[Aus_Snow]

/Side note: In my sci-fi RPG rules, I made trip an option that can only chosen *after* you have grappled someone, since to my understanding that is the most likely circumstances for it to happen anyway.

That makes sense to me. Most of the time I've seen successful 'trip attacks' happen IRL, it's been something like that (immediately following a grapple, or thereabouts.)

I'm not sure if I'd be able to grok that whole trip once per encounter thing. It strikes me as rather artificial, somehow.