Triple HP at 1st level?

[Voss]

The real sticking point for me on making 1st-level PCs tougher is the 1-HD humanoids. I can see wanting 1st-level PCs to be able to defeat wolves, dire rats, and things that you would expect an armed and armored veteran medieval footman to be able to defeat.

I want to see the stupid trope of seriously fighting animals die a horrible death.

Unless the bloody things are rabid or protecting their young, there aren't many animals that will attack a group of armed people.

These are really critters that a peasant can kill with a bow or a spear. They aren't a threat to adventurers- they're *dinner*. Fighting over sized rats or wolves or badgers is sad and lame.

Its worth noting that mounts are different kettle of fish. But then, they've got people on them.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

I want to see the stupid trope of seriously fighting animals die a horrible death.

Unless the bloody things are rabid or protecting their young, there aren't many animals that will attack a group of armed people.

These are really critters that a peasant can kill with a bow or a spear. They aren't a threat to adventurers- they're *dinner*. Fighting over sized rats or wolves or badgers is sad and lame.

Its worth noting that mounts are different kettle of fish. But then, they've got people on them.

I will remind you though that things like tigers, boars, brown bears, etc... represented a danger, a serious danger, for the common 'middle age' fighter of the world.

Or a pack of smaller animals, like wolves.

A knight could very well die against a big adult boar...

 

[Belphanior]

Venomous snakes and spiders also have a habit of biting when it's really inconvenient.

Wolves only rarely fight to the death. They must be famished before getting that desperate. That said, D&D is a world were evil eco-terrorist druids send forth nature's killers to destroy small villages. So adventurers will probably still fight wolves even if it's not deep winter.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

Venomous snakes and spiders also have a habit of biting when it's really inconvenient.

Wolves only rarely fight to the death. They must be famished before getting that desperate. That said, D&D is a world were evil eco-terrorist druids send forth nature's killers to destroy small villages. So adventurers will probably still fight wolves even if it's not deep winter.

I think if anything, animals are underutilised. Too mudane, less glamour way to die.

And yet... like a pack of wolves, manipulated or pushed by a possible surnature cause to kill... It still have a dark coolness. Like in a celtic dark age-inspired campaign.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Clone Troopers killed hundreds of Jedi, including Plo Kloon, Ki Ali Mundi, Aalya Secura, and Shaak Ti.

We were talking about Star Wars. That's a series of 3 movies released between 1977 and 1983.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

We were talking about Star Wars. That's a series of 3 movies released between 1977 and 1983.

The prequels are also star wars, unless you are in denial.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

The prequels are also star wars, unless you are in denial.

There were prequels?

My original comment was on the Stormtroopers in the first Star Wars movie. What they did in other works is of no consequence to how they were presented in that movie. There is a way to have "Main character vs. mooks" that presents the mooks as a credible threat, and a way to present the mooks as inept and pathetic. I can't say I would find the latter an enjoyable D&D game.

Is the light-hearted nature of Star Wars to blame? Possibly. Watching Han Solo running around the corner being chased by Stormtroopers, I didn't feel that he was seriously fearing for his life. It's too comical a scene.

On the other hand, the scenes of Boromir vs. Uruk-Hai and Aragorn vs. Uruk-Hai present the enemies as a real threat. Even though I knew in my mind that Aragorn was going to win, Aragorn's fight scene made it seem dramatic, like it could go either way. The pacing, the staging, the direction, the acting, all make it seem like he's in the fight of his life.

To bring this back on topic... that's what I want in D&D. Even though I know in my mind that the odds will usually be stacked in the PCs' favor, I want every fight to feel like there is a real chance my PC can lose. Otherwise, why bother rolling the dice? Where is the fun of coming up with a great strategem, or getting that lucky roll, when you knew all along you were going to win? I want my PC to take daring chances knowing that he might fail, so the fun if he succeeds is all the better.

 

[Wormwood]

The prequels are also star wars, unless you are in denial.

There isn't a name for the level of denial I'm in.

 

[pawsplay]

The Uruk Hai killed Boromir.
The storm troopers never killed a main character in Star Wars, ever. Closest they come are wounding them are capturing them.

They one-shotted Leia... good thing it was on stun. And, of course, they exterminated the Jedi order.

They do a very fine job of exterminating non-major characters, including Rebel Troopers (on the Tantive IV), an entire caravan of jawas, Owen and Beru, countless Rebel troopers on Hoth, and dozens of Ewoks. They go up against heroic characters only a handful of times in the movies, and in each case, the heroes (surprise surprise) triumph, apart from Leia's capture.

 

[Henry]

For the DMs who want the PCs to start-off as pathetic, like yourself, the solution is easy. Use more dangerous monsters and traps. A DM can have his 30hp 1st-level PCs terrified with little effort by tossing a couple extra ogres into a room.

I don't see how extra hps will prevent you from killing PCs, if that's what you want.

If Star Wars is a gauge, it won't work. I've seen 6 1st level Star Wars PCs take out 3 Nexu, which are CL5 Beasts. One PC was knocked out by a lucky shot, and that was it. Plus, the aforementioned action points/Destiny Points mean that D&D PCs will probably be impossible to kill unless the DM is gunning for them totally unfairly -- and yes, there's a huge range between a PC being "fragile" and being slaughtered by a DM with overly dangerous traps.

The bottom line is that low-level, grim play has been phased out of every successive edition, and 4E is doing away with it completely, from the news we've gotten so far. It seems to be going to solely one play style, that of mid-level D&D, throughout the game. What it means for me is that I'll have to use a totally different game, such as Grim Tales, to get this kind of game play from now on, or stick to earlier editions.