Tripping an opponent in a grapple

[Meladorn]

Can you trip an opponent involved in a grapple? I can't seem to find anything in the PHB that addresses this.

If you can, it would seem to leave the opponent you've tripped still in the grapple but prone (-4 to grapple checks and an additonal -4 to AC)

I ask because the grapple puts the combatants in an unusual situation (close quarters) that makes wonder if it's reasonable that you should be able to trip one and not the other (both grappling combatants).

 

[Vegepygmy]

The FAQ has an example of combat between "Bob" (a prone fighter) and "Grog" (an orc) that essentially says yes, you can be prone in a grapple and yes, you take a -4 penalty on your grapple checks for being prone.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Sure, you can trip one but not the other.

Note that the FAQ is wrong; you do not take a -4 penalty on Grapple checks for being prone (since a grapple check is like, but is not, an attack roll).

 

[Legildur]

I'm with Patryn, but I would clarify that you would take the -4 penalty on the melee touch attack to initiate the trip (and yes, this would usually provoke an AOO from the defender).

But on further reading of the grapple rules in the PHB, it appears that maybe you can't (conveniently) trip in a grapple. If you are grappling, you can perform the following actions:

activate a magic item
attack your opponent
cast a spell
damage your opponent
draw a light weapon
escape from a grapple
move
retrive a spell component
pin your opponent
break another's pin
use opponent's weapon

Expanding on 'attack your opponent' it says that "you can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling...."

The unarmed melee touch attack to initiate a trip is none of those. So it looks like you would need to use a kama (or some other light weapon that allows you to trip) in order to do so.

 

[Meladorn]

Thanks for the quick replies!

I think I'm going to go with Patryn's interpretation of the rules (thanks for pointing me in the direction of the FAQ BTW guys). I also agree that a grapple check is technically not a melee attack and so shouldn't suffer from the melee attack penalty of being prone.

When I posed my question I actually hadn't considered the trip from within the grapple but from a third party without. It does seem possible though, doesn't it? In light of all the above I don't see why you couldn't make an unarmed melee attack (at -4, touch or otherwise) under the grapple option of 'attack an opponent' to initiate a trip against the opponent you're currently grappling.

 

[azhrei_fje]

Agreed. I don't see any reason why one grappler couldn't trip another. A melee touch attack is an unarmed strike, isn't it?

 

[Legildur]

A melee touch attack is an unarmed strike, isn't it?

Apparently not. An unarmed strike is a form of unarmed attack that deals damage. An unarmed melee touch attack (as in the start of a trip attempt) is different. A monk, for example, would, even with the Improved Unarmed Strike ability, still provoke an AOO from attempting a trip unless they have the Improved Trip feat.

 

[Meladorn]

Isn't a melee touch attack a moot point anyway - you're in a grapple!

Although it isn't one of the options listed under the grapple section (and so it could be argued that it's not legal by the rules) I don't think it would be a terrible house rule.

 

[Infiniti2000]

A monk, for example, would, even with the Improved Unarmed Strike ability, still provoke an AOO from attempting a trip unless they have the Improved Trip feat.

Maybe, but this is arguable. Fwiw, I agree with your stance, but the counterargument is to read only the first paragraph under benefit:

You are considered to be armed even when unarmed —that is, you do not provoke attacks or opportunity from armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed. However, you still get an attack of opportunity against any opponent who makes an unarmed attack on you.

Note that it doesn't explicitly limit it to unarmed strike, though the "Normal" section arguably does. Note also that this applies to any character with Improved Unarmed Strike.

As for the question, I agree with Patryn from a rules interpretation. I do houserule that grapple checks are attack rolls, however, though special ones, so things like power attack, etc. apply.