Troy- Achilles a epic hero?

[Zweischneid]

So no they aren't "epic levels" but they are certainly epic in the traditional sense, you don't have to be "epic level" in order to be epic.

Most certainly. And you can also be 'epic level' and experience mundane adventures that don't stir much in the general run of things. In fact, all to many epic-level (and regular high-level) games I've seen just upgrade the surrounding setting with equally high-level challenges which in turn makes the game basically a mundane one with overtly complicated rules.

Infact, a fair share of epic tales (not all of them) are about the little guys, the common man or the underdog achieving the unthinkable (i.e. think Frodo in LoTR, Luke Skywalker in A New Hope)


Infact, if you'd play the LoTR with an Epic-level hero who'd just slaughter his way single-handely through Mordor, kicks Saurons Ass, chews down the One Ring and spits it into the flames, pimpslapping Saruman on the way out.. it certainly would not be epic.. all it would be is boring.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

I think people (including some designers) overestimate the need for epic levels to emulate great heroes. A 15th-20th level character is a great hero AFAIAC, and certainly has the ability to mow down dozens of low level troops.

Agreed.

Though I wouldn't say Achillies is EPIC(level), being the son of a God might qualify him for Demigod status

 

[The Other Librarian]

Epic hero in literary terms means something different, obviously than epic in d20 terms. So while Achilles is certainly epic in the "exemplary hero brought low by tragic flaw" sense, I don't think he would qualify as over 20th level in game mechanics.

That said, he is supposed to be the supreme fighter among his people, the height of human potential, so you could make the case that he is very high level. It would depend on the level range you see as appropriate for the setting, if you will.

 

[shilsen]

It also depends to a great extent on what source you are trying to emulate. Trying to make Achilles from Dares of Phrygia's text is very different from Achilles in Homer.

In the Iliad, for example, Achilles is neither immune to normal weapons (he is wounded and bleeds), nor is his heel a specifically vulnerable spot. He is the finest warrior among the Greeks, but does not have supernatural abilities (though he is definitely the fastest and arguably the strongest of them). As a warrior, he is substantially superior to Hector. Hector, in fact, is not as good a warrior as Ajax (Telamon, not Oileus) or Diomedes or even Patroclus. He is in the same league martially as the second-level Greek heroes, such as Odysseus, Agamemnon and Idomeneus.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Actually, while I am normally a fan of the "less is more" approach, I would say that in the Greek mythology sweepstakes, the winners definitely might top out as epic-level characters. Think about it this way:

-Diomedes, King of Thrace, wounds Ares in combat. Getting close enough to a deity (or even an "avatar") to do this is pretty extraordinary.

-Likewise, Achilles, Hector, and others literally send men fleeing from the field at the very sight of their anger. Again, this isn't something that a non-epic-level fighter, however powerful, can do without magic, and it's pretty clear that the only "magic" that operates on these folk is divine favor (which is pretty powerful magic, to be sure, but...)

The Greek myths, along with superhero comics, are the only "literature" I know that actually accomodate anything like the possibility of epic-level characters. I agree that in 99% of all cases, "epic levels" are meaningless to emulate epic heroes, but the Greek myths and epic poems are some of the few pieces of literature in which I actually can see those heroes having epic levels.

 

[Felix]

I'd say no to them being Epic level. I still think the 2e convention of 9th level being when PCs reputations begin to grow out of their control. That's when people start telling stories about them, hearing exaggerated tales of their conquests. And that's about the time when they can wade through 1st to 3rd level mooks and not feel a thing.

So I'd peg most of those guys at around 9 to 15, and keep the power level down, generally.

and others literally send men fleeing from the field at the very sight of their anger.

Could be something like Terrifying Rage, yeah? Or maybe lots of intimidate checks? Or a failure on a morale check the DM made...

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Infact, a fair share of epic tales (not all of them) are about the little guys, the common man or the underdog achieving the unthinkable (i.e. think Frodo in LoTR, Luke Skywalker in A New Hope)


Infact, if you'd play the LoTR with an Epic-level hero who'd just slaughter his way single-handely through Mordor, kicks Saurons Ass, chews down the One Ring and spits it into the flames, pimpslapping Saruman on the way out.. it certainly would not be epic.. all it would be is boring.

You're comparing apples and oranges. LotR is a series of novels that is Epic in scope. The D&D Epic Level Handbook is a manual for PCs that have become Epic in power. They're two different things. You can certainly have a game of Epic-scope in the course of 1-20. To have, as D&D defines it, a game of Epic-power, you play a 21+ game.

In Tolkien's case, The Silmarillion would be the story of Epic-power. LotR is about low-level characters in a story of Epic-scope.

And of that said, I think it's easy to pattern the Trojan War in either Epic or non-Epic terms. You simply need to provide enough of a level gap between the common heroes and the great heroes. The only thing to keep in mind is, if you decide to go low-power and make the great heroes merely 10th-level fighters, you'll either have to slow PC advancement or prepare for the PCs becoming great heroes in the epic-scope sense fairly soon.

 

[Tonguez]

The Greek myths, along with superhero comics, are the only "literature" I know that actually accomodate anything like the possibility of epic-level characters.

You need to read a lot more mythology. Besides Greek you have Celtic myth (Google Cuchulain, Finn McCool) and (my specialty) Polynesian Myth (Google for Maui, Tahaki). The Hawaiian Kupua stories might just be the earliest 'superhero' stories


Oh as to Achilles - movie version I'd say no, just high level. Also IMHO once a character goes Level 10+ they become 'epic -powered', and you can have Epic adventures at Level 3...

 

[Sandain]

Hello,

I would have Achilles as being a half-Celestial 7th level fighter. His feats would include Dodge, Mobility, and Spring attack.

He would have some DR due to being dipped in the magic water as a baby.

He does not need any new rules to explain how he can carve through armies. With non magical equipment and his high dex he gets an AC of 22-23. The mooks with a BaB or +1 or 2 wont be able to hit him. His high Dex is what makes him so deadly in the ancient greek environment.

His Str and weapon spec explains how he kills so cleanly and quickly. Also HP in D&D is not a reflection on how much blood you can bleed out - its a measure of resilience. So Achilles can take weapons hits and lose HP - but that doesnt mean he actually recieves a visible wound.

In the Achilles vs Hector fight I imagine it went like this;
Dm: ok rol initiative
Achilles: I got a 20 I go first. I activate Expertise and attack
Hector: I activate Expertise and attack
10 rounds later....
Dm: ok Hector your at 10 hp, the last hit opened a nasty cut in your leg
Achilles: Yeah this half celestial template and high dex rocks!
Hector: Munchkin!

Now, if you wear a basic soldier, and a hero of reknown stepped onto the field - knowing that you all face certain death, would you run? if half your army ran - or stay and die?

Why do people need to invent rules that can be explained with common sense? Why do hero's have to be over 20th level to be Epic? I believe the stats I presented are all thats required, and 7th level with a template is Epic in that environment.

 

[s/LaSH]

I've DMed a large-scale battle with a few hundred goblins, somewhat less well-trained human mercenaries, and four 10th-level characters in the past. After a while, the PC fighter with the heavy cavalry troop said 'you take the right flank, I'll take the center', and proceeded to turn the tide of battle practically single-handed.

'Epic' is a word that means several things, sometimes contradictory things, so it's wise to sort out which meaning we're looking for. It can mean story scope, personal power, or a specific rules set. In the case of Achilles, it's the second option, and I don't think you need to go far beyond level 10 to get there.