Troy- Achilles a epic hero?

[Chorn]

-Diomedes, King of Thrace, wounds Ares in combat. Getting close enough to a deity (or even an "avatar") to do this is pretty extraordinary.

Yeah, but Ares was a wuss who would run home crying if he got a splinter from his spear. I think you're overestimating the power level of the gods. Greek mythology, much like a lot of other mythology, is full of stories where the mortals manage to one-up the gods themselves. Furthermore, they are portrayed as very much fallible and prone to human foibles such as pride and jealousy. These are not all-powerful beings perfect in every way.

-Likewise, Achilles, Hector, and others literally send men fleeing from the field at the very sight of their anger. Again, this isn't something that a non-epic-level fighter, however powerful, can do without magic ...

You can use Intimidate in combat to demoralize an opponent and make him shaken for one round. So it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to make up a feat that allowed the heroes to extend the duration of the effect so they could do it again on the already shaken opponent.

The Greek myths, along with superhero comics, are the only "literature" I know that actually accomodate anything like the possibility of epic-level characters.

As stated above, there are plenty of stories and myths from all over the world where "normal" mortals perform all kinds of amazing feats. You don't even have to look very far back in history to find stuff like John Henry and the American railroad.

 

[argo]

Cripes people, if the heroes of the Iliad don't qualify as Epic level then who does? These people frightened rivers into changing course for god's sake! Saying that Achiles is 14 level is functionally equivalent to saying that nobody will ever breach level 20. Sure, its easy to re-define your world so that level 10 is the transition to "epic". But it is also just as easy (and possibly makes more sense logically) to throw the definition the other way. What if all those hordes of spear-carriers are level 3-5? That would make the second stringers (Paris, Agamenemnon, etc) something like 8-14 and the starting team (Hector, Odyseus, etc) in the 16-20 range. Make Achiles (maybe Ajax too) level 22 or so and call it a day.

Personally I don't run games at epic levels but I like to recognize that they exist, gives people some perspective on what the power level means. Saying to people that Acniles is a 22 level character seems to me to be about the impression I want my players to have. (even if they never make it to level 20 themselves).

Later.

 

[shilsen]

Diomedes, King of Thrace, wounds Ares in combat. Getting close enough to a deity (or even an "avatar") to do this is pretty extraordinary.

Nitpick - Diomedes does not wound Ares. Athena tells Diomedes to hurl a spear at Ares and propels it herself, which enables it to wound Ares. Diomedes does wound Aphrodite on his own, but wounding her is hardly an epic feat

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Nitpick - Diomedes does not wound Ares. Athena tells Diomedes to hurl a spear at Ares and propels it herself, which enables it to wound Ares. Diomedes does wound Aphrodite on his own, but wounding her is hardly an epic feat

However, escaping her wrath AFTER wounding her is

 

[skinnydwarf]

After watching troy(which i didnt think was such a bad movie) i did seem that the heros achilles, ajax, hector were really a cut above the normal and it took a epic hero to kill another. do people agree that they could have been classed as epic heros, especially achilles for he could cut a bloody swathe through his foes eg the battle on the beach as the greeks landed. and out of curiosity are there any d20 books on ancient greece and the heros they had . I am one that always enjoys to look at the stats and skills of famous characters and to debate on whether they have been faithfully recreated

Not such a bad movie?! It was great! Personally, I loved it.

While I don't think it has stats on the heroes (I haven't read the whole thing yet) "The New Argonauts" by Sean K. Reynolds games is pretty cool. Lots of good ideas.

 

[TDRandall]

Now what I would like is for the next Helen to be Ruth Buzzie with her hair net. How is that for a face which launched a thousand ships.

LOL! I read throught the thread and then went back and read through it again. Both times I hit this line I couldn't stop laughing - good thing the family is asleep or I'd have to explain. I can picture her scowling, standing on a hill as all the sailors to run for their ships to launch them and get away. (At least that's what I'm presuming you meant.)

Of course, I'm wondering just how many on the boards actually know who she is. Unless she made a comeback that I don't know about, the last appearance I know of places her in the 80s at the latest, probably the 70s!

 

[Wombat]

Yeah, but Ares was a wuss who would run home crying if he got a splinter from his spear. I think you're overestimating the power level of the gods.

Well, part of this comes from the fact that most of the versions of the legends of the Greeks that we have were either written by Athenians or edited by them (thus Athena becomes powerful and wonderful and Ares becomes just a muscle-bound cry-baby). I wonder if we had some more of the tales out of the mouths/hands of the Spartans if maybe our collective vision of Ares might not shift significantly.

 

[Ron]

Cripes people, if the heroes of the Iliad don't qualify as Epic level then who does? [...]

Superman definitely qualifies, although I'm not so sure about Batman . Seriously, Epic levels, in D&D sense, are superheroic stuff, much above anything from fantasy literature. There are some myths that might qualify, but they are, for most part, not human beings but actually demigods or something similar.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Seriously, Epic levels, in D&D sense, are superheroic stuff, much above anything from fantasy literature.

I disagree. Some examples:

David Eddings' Belgariad: Belgarion does battle with a mad god mano e mano, and wins.
Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time: Rand al'Thor re-directs the primal force that drives the universe.
Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth: Richard Rahl has single-handedly destroyed entire armies and removed a plague from thousands in an instant.
J.R.R. Tokien's Lord of the Rings: Isildur stood against the Maiar (read: fallen Solar) Sauron in mortal combat, and cut the One Ring from his finger.
Raymond Feist's Magician: Pug literally travels to the end of Time and back again.
Janny Wurts' War of Light and Shadow: The Brotherhood of Seven can defy death (choosing to continue "living" incorporeally), create fountains that can give 500 years of extra life to anyone who drinks from them, travel into deep space and erect magical barriers that cover the entire planet, and much more.
Tad Williams' The War of the Flowers: Lord Hellebore cast a spell which threatened to unleash a dark, primal Chaos and plunge the world into an age of superstition and dread.
Sean Russell's The Swans' War: A powerful wizard grants his children basically a charisma bonus of infinity, as well as various other powers.
Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials: The various characters join together to depose God.
Weis and Hickman's Deathgate Cycle: The Sartan wizards were powerful enough to sunder Creation itself into six disparate parts.

I'm sure others could come up with a lot more. Epic characters are certainly not absent from fantasy fiction!

 

[Zweischneid]

In the Iliad, for example, Achilles is neither immune to normal weapons (he is wounded and bleeds), nor is his heel a specifically vulnerable spot. He is the finest warrior among the Greeks, but does not have supernatural abilities (though he is definitely the fastest and arguably the strongest of them). As a warrior, he is substantially superior to Hector. Hector, in fact, is not as good a warrior as Ajax (Telamon, not Oileus) or Diomedes or even Patroclus. He is in the same league martially as the second-level Greek heroes, such as Odysseus, Agamemnon and Idomeneus.

Maybe you've read a different version than I did, but in my book Achilles was indeed invulnverable due to being dipped into the River Styx by his Mother Thetis as a sacrifice to Poseidon, and only vulnerable only at the heel where his mother gripped him. He survived because Lykomededs intervened.

Haven't seen the movie though.. that version might differ.
(heard it doesn't do much of the religious & divine either way).

Note however, that he could still be cut and bleed. Invulnerability doesn't refer to some comic-bookish superskin where blades and bullets just bounce off like they do with superman.
It's more a he-was-dipped-in-the-river-of-death-so-death-will-not-touch-him type of invulnerability.