D&D 5E True Polymorph shenanigans and "game statistics"

[Sunseeker]

We're recently reached high enough level for our party Wizard to cast True Polymorph and being the sort of player he is, he's itching to give it a go. "Itching" as in bugging my Monk in-game to let him polymorph me and out of curiosity, a little boredom and the certainly ensuing hilarity I think I'm going to let him do it. However, we're curious as to what constitutes "game statistics". Is it just your base stats? Stats and racial features? Is is your entire sheet? Somewhere in between? I haven't seen a clear consensus on it and while that certainly might be a place where the DM gets to make a ruling, but until next week I'm curious if you folks have seen any uniformity or any official rulings? Is a level 15 Wizard still a level 15 Wizard in addition to being a Green Dragon?

 

[CapnZapp]

I would be very surprised if this issue hasn't already been hashed out several times in previous threads.

 

[Sunseeker]

I would be very surprised if this issue hasn't already been hashed out several times in previous threads.

Thank you, that was incredibly helpful. I mean, it's not like I specifically mentioned that I had read up on it ahead of time and had seen no clear conclusion, thus why I was asking, so I really appreciate your unhelpful, useless comment telling me to "go look it up."

So let me clarify something about this thead, since in your own opinion elsewhere the OP gets to control the line of discussion:

DO NOT RESPOND IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BE HELPFUL, THANK YOU.

 

[Umbran]

I would be very surprised if this issue hasn't already been hashed out several times in previous threads.

So what if it has? We have a search function, but it is only available to paid members. So, finding that content on a busy board can be a bit difficult.

If you had actually found some of that discussion, and presented it, saying, "I think some of what you want might be in this thread...." that might have been helpful. But a general statement that the person should search instead of ask, isn't constructive.

Plus, if humans couldn't talk about things that had already been talked about... we'd not have much to talk about any more. So, please, let it carry on.

DO NOT RESPOND IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BE HELPFUL, THANK YOU.

Conversely, sir - you don't own the thread. While it is sometimes okay to ask folks politely to stick to the topic, or remain civil, GOING TO ALL CAPS TO SHOUT AT PEOPLE who write things you don't want to see isn't any better than his comment above. The snarky tone doesn't help - it moves it away from a reasonable request to being a challenge. You basically set up a situation where normal human ego would likely call for a continuation of the disruption, rather than a cessation.

Let play nice, folks, please and thank you.

 

[I'm A Banana]

No great consensus has been reached.

My own ruling would be that "game statistics" includes things like class features - e.g., "your entire sheet." This seems to be RAI, and it minimizes shenanigans. You are no longer even a little bit a monk, you are entirely the new creature.

This would be distinct from something like wild shape - there, I could see a case for keeping monk powers or whatnot. But though similar, polymorph and wild shape are different things. Wild shape tends to be a little better than spell-morphing.

 

[Sunseeker]

No great consensus has been reached.

My own ruling would be that "game statistics" includes things like class features - e.g., "your entire sheet." This seems to be RAI, and it minimizes shenanigans. You are no longer even a little bit a monk, you are entirely the new creature.

This would be distinct from something like wild shape - there, I could see a case for keeping monk powers or whatnot. But though similar, polymorph and wild shape are different things. Wild shape tends to be a little better than spell-morphing.

That is my conclusion as well, and IMO, the fairest conclusion, given some of the things you have access to as high-CR creatures.

With some more digging, I actually uncovered a response from Mearls back in late 2014: https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/502584950705885184?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

While I find twitter conversations hard to follow, I get the felling that the initial "yup" means you are 100% the creature, with only the features of the creature while polymorphed. Though I think this also means you could essentially "reset" someone to level 0 with this, by turning them into just a plain old humanoid. So, an interesting trick if someone wanted to re-class.

As a side-note, it also establishes that CR=level.

 

[MonkeezOnFire]

Considering that True Polymorph and Polymorph are supposed to allow casting on an enemy as a debuff it makes the most sense that everything is replaced by the monster's stat block. It wouldn't be a useful debuff if turning the evil archmage into a mouse allowed him to still cast spells.

 

[Sunseeker]

Considering that True Polymorph and Polymorph are supposed to allow casting on an enemy as a debuff it makes the most sense that everything is replaced by the monster's stat block. It wouldn't be a useful debuff if turning the evil archmage into a mouse allowed him to still cast spells.

Right, though I think a clause along the lines of the Druid's Wildshape may be appropriate: Can't use class abilities if the form can't use them. So, a mouse can't talk or gestiulate, so he can't cast spells. A Weretiger can speak and gesticulate, so he can cast spells. True Polymorph denotes that like Polymorph, that you can't cast spells or take actions that the new form doesn't have they physical capability to do so.

Here's an interesting line in the free DMG PDF in the Ghost info: "It otherwise uses the possessed target’s statistics, but doesn’t gain access to the target’s knowledge, class features, or proficiencies. The possession lasts until the body drops "
Differentiating "statistics" as something separate from class features and proficiencies.

Honestly I think it's just a language problem. This edition is notoriously "fuzzy" on the language.

 

[Dausuul]

The short answer is, ask your DM. No matter what a bunch of folks on the Internet think, your DM's vote is the only one that counts.

Having said that, if I were the DM being asked to rule: I would interpret it as "your entire character sheet." For the duration of true polymorph, your character sheet is taken away and replaced with a photocopy of the appropriate entry in the Monster Manual. Unlike druidic Wild Shape, which specifically allows you to keep your class features and mental stats, true polymorph overwrites everything--it makes a point of noting that your mental stats are replaced by those of the new form. I would say the spell even changes what languages you speak. The only things you keep are your alignment and personality, because the spell calls those out as an exception.

One interesting question is what happens if the monster entry has equipment. Based on the text of the spell, I think the intent is that you wouldn't get any of that equipment; if you true polymorph into a fire giant, you become a naked fire giant without weapons or armor. However, I personally would rule that your equipment becomes the monster's equipment where reasonable--your robes become its armor, your dagger becomes its sword, et cetera--as part of the process of "melding into your new form," with the caveat that only mundane equipment can be replicated this way.

 

[Saeviomagy]

True polymorph has the same "can't use spells if the new form can't" language.

I'd say it's entirely up to your DM to make a spot ruling on any given form, but the easiest thing for a DM to do is to replace your entire character sheet with the monster stat block. You're still getting a big pile of ablative hit points, some powerful attacks and some spellcasting, and the game won't grind to a halt as you try to integrate your normal stats and the new ones.