D&D 5E True Polymorph shenanigans and "game statistics"

[77IM]

All in all I have only one reservation about this whole system... and that's about knowledge. There is no reason why you should gain or lose knowledge when changing form. If you know the barkeeper's name or how to enter Asmodeus' palace, why should you forget it while polymorphed? And if you didn't know it, why should you learn it by polymorphing? While this is obvious for free-form knowledge, the problem is that there are also knowledge skills, which by the RAW are affected. It may not happen often, but personally I will make an exception for knowledge skills and would not change what you know or don't know in case of polymorph.

This is a very insightful analysis and I like your ultimate conclusion. A special exception for a few mental skills seems totally legit, and not too game-breaking or too cumbersome.

 

[Sunseeker]

This is a very insightful analysis and I like your ultimate conclusion. A special exception for a few mental skills seems totally legit, and not too game-breaking or too cumbersome.

My DM make a good argument to me about it last week in regards to mental skills:
You literally think differently. Your brain is made up of different brain-meats. It processes thoughts, feelings and knowledge differently. You don't lose knowledge about anything you know about but you think about it differently. Like that old episode of Transformers where Spike's brain was temporarily stored in a make-shift Autobot body. He literally didn't think the same way.

It doesn't affect proficiency, you're still trained to think better about that stuff (really why I liked the word "Trained" from 4E).

 

[Sunseeker]

Also worth noting: The ablative hit point feature goes away if the spell becomes "permanent"; at that point, that's your form. You die, you're dead.

To be fair though, a CR 17 Dragon has ~265HP uzing average+1+con. A Level 17 Fighter has, using maximum HD totals and maximum con: 255(170+85). Assuming you throw Toughness or are a Dwarf on there, you'd be about the same, but at your MAXIMUM. At your average+1 you'd have 204(119+85).

So, typically speaking you're not going to be at a loss in the HP department if you're polymorphed into something your level that isn't explicitly squishy.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Also worth noting: The ablative hit point feature goes away if the spell becomes "permanent"; at that point, that's your form. You die, you're dead.

I was under the impression that "permanent" only removed the concentration requirement and extended the duration. If you get taken to 0 hit points (or someone casts dispel magic on you), it fades as usual. To me, that reduces it's power. Instead of casting it once, ever, you will need to recast it often if you are an adventuring party, making it an actual drain on resources. I also think that the fact that the new form is still 'temporary' will nix any arguments that class levels should get applied to it.

On the down side it does mean you can't permanently polymorph someone into a toad and have it stick if they know what they're doing. Well, unless you throw in a feeblemind. Personally I would add 'polymorphed into something insignificant' to the list of forms that imprisonment takes, which also makes it match fairy tales quite nicely.

On the subject of knowledge checks... it's magic. I'm fine with it changing what you know, and I can easily fluff how it works. Your mind is radically different, and although your personality is still there, even keeping that is somewhat of a struggle.

 

[Sunseeker]

I was under the impression that "permanent" only removed the concentration requirement and extended the duration. If you get taken to 0 hit points (or someone casts dispel magic on you), it fades as usual. To me, that reduces it's power. Instead of casting it once, ever, you will need to recast it often if you are an adventuring party, making it an actual drain on resources. I also think that the fact that the new form is still 'temporary' will nix any arguments that class levels should get applied to it.

On the down side it does mean you can't permanently polymorph someone into a toad and have it stick if they know what they're doing. Well, unless you throw in a feeblemind. Personally I would add 'polymorphed into something insignificant' to the list of forms that imprisonment takes, which also makes it match fairy tales quite nicely.

On the subject of knowledge checks... it's magic. I'm fine with it changing what you know, and I can easily fluff how it works. Your mind is radically different, and although your personality is still there, even keeping that is somewhat of a struggle.

I'd personally just rule on whatever makes more sense or is more fun. I'd argue that a willing subject may simply be stuck in the form until it hits zero, maybe even give them the ability to make a will save to end the effect since they were a willing participant. An unwilling target who failed their save might be stuck in there forever. I think both takes are equally valid approaches, and I'd accept whatever my DM rules for me in any given situation even if the results were different on different occasions.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I'd personally just rule on whatever makes more sense or is more fun. I'd argue that a willing subject may simply be stuck in the form until it hits zero, maybe even give them the ability to make a will save to end the effect since they were a willing participant. An unwilling target who failed their save might be stuck in there forever. I think both takes are equally valid approaches, and I'd accept whatever my DM rules for me in any given situation even if the results were different on different occasions.

Of course the main defense against being polymorphed into something harmless forever with this spell is whether or not you know that killing yourself in the first hour will break the spell. That's another reason imprisonment needs a polymorph option.

 

[Li Shenron]

My DM make a good argument to me about it last week in regards to mental skills:
You literally think differently. Your brain is made up of different brain-meats. It processes thoughts, feelings and knowledge differently. You don't lose knowledge about anything you know about but you think about it differently. Like that old episode of Transformers where Spike's brain was temporarily stored in a make-shift Autobot body. He literally didn't think the same way.

It doesn't affect proficiency, you're still trained to think better about that stuff (really why I liked the word "Trained" from 4E).

How you think is not the same as what you know.

Anyway I run a quick check of the MM (possibly missing some cases...) and found that monsters with proficiency in Knowledge skills include about a dozen creatures proficient in Arcana and half a dozen proficien in History (some in both). The only other knowledge proficiency appearing is Religion, only Sphinxes have that. In addition to that, Survival appears a few times, and it is ambiguous on whether your capabilities with it (finding shelter, food etc.) depend more on instinct or actual knowledge.

Therefore, on second thoughts, I think I'll always choose depending on both the situation (what you are trying to do or know) and the specific creature, if you allowed to use the creature's proficiency bonus, or if you are even allowed a check at all.

The general idea is you cannot turn into a specific individual. Maybe you can choose the look of it, but you can't be it. You assume the physical shape and capabilities (even magical) or a general specimen. But then it depends... if you turn into a Silver Dragon, I won't let you be proficient in History, I would rather say that Dragons know a lot of things because they have a long life span (in fact only adult+ dragons have this proficiency), but you didn't live the life of a dragon, and neither you suddenly have all the knowledge of an "average" dragon. I can let you use the dragon's higher Int (in case of Polymorph), maybe that can represent a clearer mind to "connect the dots", but that's it.

Similarly, I won't let you turn into an Aboleth and gain "eternal memories", which by the way, are not an ability mentioned in the stat block, it's in the "fluff section", nevertheless it's pretty explicit! I would say that you physically turn into a possible Aboleth, but you weren't born like that and lived its life, and so you didn't have any parent who could pass all the ancestors' knowledge onto you.

OTOH if you find a spell that would let you "enter inside the mind" (possess?) of an actual Aboleth individual, then sure I'd let you read its memories. But not with polymorph.

Again, I'd make it very dependent on situation and creature. Maybe I decide that Flumphs do not learn their Knowledge, but just know it, due to a deeper intrinsic understanding of things in the universe (maybe they "see across space and time"). In that case, I'd let you use their knowledge proficiencies if you turn into one.

Similary for those few cases of Survival. I'd look it up if it seems that one creature is proficient as an instinctive ability (presumably all beasts) or because of its culture (e.g. humanoids). I'd say yes to earning the proficiency in the first case, and nay in the second.

All in all I guess it won't be often a problem. Most monsters are only proficient in perception and stealth, if anything at all

 

[Warbringer]

Here's one.

If you lose skills, but keep personality (which isn't really a game stat), do you keep memories (which is what knowledge is).

If no, does that mean you forget everything you did when in polymorphed form?

 

[ExploderWizard]

Right, though I think a clause along the lines of the Druid's Wildshape may be appropriate: Can't use class abilities if the form can't use them. So, a mouse can't talk or gestiulate, so he can't cast spells. A Weretiger can speak and gesticulate, so he can cast spells. True Polymorph denotes that like Polymorph, that you can't cast spells or take actions that the new form doesn't have they physical capability to do so.

Here's an interesting line in the free DMG PDF in the Ghost info: "It otherwise uses the possessed target’s statistics, but doesn’t gain access to the target’s knowledge, class features, or proficiencies. The possession lasts until the body drops "
Differentiating "statistics" as something separate from class features and proficiencies.

Honestly I think it's just a language problem. This edition is notoriously "fuzzy" on the language.

I think the spell description is actually fairly clear. You retain your alignment and personality. Thus everything else gets replaced. Polymorphing is different than shapeshifting or possession. A shape shifter is immune to polymorph. It is a different type of transformation. When shapeshifting, you are still you. You retain your mental stats taking only the physical form of the creature.

A possession is just a co-habitation of your body with another entity. You are still you- just not in control at the moment. A polymorph is a complete transformation, physically and mentally. You retain basic alignment and personality but mental capabilities change to that of the creature. If you were polymorphed into a dog then your personality would manifest as well as it could but you are still only as smart as a dog.

Here's one.

If you lose skills, but keep personality (which isn't really a game stat), do you keep memories (which is what knowledge is).

If no, does that mean you forget everything you did when in polymorphed form?

This one is covered by the spell description. The only time memory is affected is if a creature is turned into an object. The creature has no memory of its time spent as an object. Therefore a creature turned into a creature DOES retain its memory of time spent in that form.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. The next character that I play is going to open a tavern called Shenanigans when they retire.

 

[Li Shenron]

If you lose skills, but keep personality (which isn't really a game stat), do you keep memories (which is what knowledge is).

As I mentioned in the first post, both Wilshape/Shapechange and (True)Polymorph say that you don't change alignment and personality but don't specify if you completely retain your mind or self-consciousness (which is more than just personality). It would make no sense if you didn't, when you are using Wildshape or cast a beneficial spell on yourself or an ally, but how about when you cast a spell that is meant to be offensive?

Certainly there could be some interesting story situations if the target retained the general personality (and it's still good/evil) however completely forgot who he really was a monent ago, and now undoubtedly believes he's a rat, frog, or whatever you have turned it into.

But personally I would let the target always retain self-consciousness, and that includes memories and knowledge. Just so that the spell works the same way whether you intend it to be beneficial or a curse. I'd leave the other option for an occasional (cursed) magic item, or a special case.