true resurrection

[dkilgo]

Its range is "Dead creature touched".

There is nothing that I can find in the errata to counter this statement, but there is one thing. At the beginning of the spell description it tells you "As Raise Dead." There is where I see a problem! With Raise Dead you have to touch the corpse in order to raise it. But, True Ressurection is contradicting itself. In the very same passage it says, essentially, that you have to touch the intended victim, but later on in the passage it goes against itself completely. I mean if you had to touch the body in order to cast True Ressurection, if the body wasn't obliterated, then why wouldn't you just cast a lower level spell to get the same effect. Possibly, I am looking for another excuse other than the level loss, or constitution loss. It still does not make sense to leave out the level loss, and not modify any other part of the spell.

It says that by unambiguously identifying the creature you wish to raise, you can do so "if the body has been wholly destroyed".

If it hasn't been, I maintain that you need to touch whatever's left.

See previous reply.

You can never force someone to be raised. No Will save, they simply choose whether or not to come back.

"Revivification Against One's Will: A soul cannot be returned to life if it does not wish to be. A soul knows the name, alignment, and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to revive it and may refuse to return on that basis. "
-Hyp.

I do agree with you here. I did, in fact, misread the portion of the spell description dealing saves. I appologize, but I have always played that it is possible. The caster of the spell has to be of significant power to do it though.

 

[hammymchamham]

There is nothing that I can find in the errata to counter this statement, but there is one thing. At the beginning of the spell description it tells you "As Raise Dead." There is where I see a problem! With Raise Dead you have to touch the corpse in order to raise it. But, True Ressurection is contradicting itself.

True Resurrection
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 9, Healing 9
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Touch
Target: Dead creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
The cleric restores life to a deceased creature. The cleric can raise creatures who have been dead up to 10 years per caster level. In addition, the subject?s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject?s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, subjects who want to return receive no saving throw.
Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no loss of level (or Constitution point) or prepared spells.
This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been wholly destroyed, provided the character unambiguously identifies the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased?s time and place of birth or death is the most common method).
None of the dead creature?s equipment or possessions are affected in any way by this spell.
The character can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed.
Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can?t be raised. The spell cannot bring back a creature who has died of old age.
Material Components: Worth at least 5,000 gp.

or

Resurrection
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 7
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Touch
Target: Dead creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
The cleric restores life to a deceased creature. The cleric can raise creatures who have been dead no longer than 10 years per caster level. The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature?s body still exists, it can be resurrected, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature?s body at the time of death. (The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.) In addition, the subject?s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject?s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, subjects who want to return receive no saving throw. The subject loses a level (or 1 Constitution point, if the subject is 1st level) when raised.
Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no loss of prepared spells.
None of the dead creature?s equipment or possessions are affected in any way by this spell.
The character can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can?t be raised. The spell cannot bring back a creature who has died of old age.
Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The subject of the spell loses one level when it is raised, just as if it had lost a level to an energy-draining creature. This level loss cannot be repaired by any spell. If the subject is 1st level, it loses 1 point of Constitution instead. Material Component: Worth at least 500 gp.

Says nothing about "As Raise Dead." The spells are not compared to it, so no need to bring

Raise Dead
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 5
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: Dead creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
The cleric restores life to a deceased creature. The cleric can raise creatures who have been dead only up to 1 day per caster level. In addition, the subject?s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject?s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, subjects who want to return receive no saving throw. The subject loses a level (or 1 Constitution point, if the subject is 1st level) when raised.
Raise dead cures hit point damage up to a total of 1 hit point per Hit Die. Any ability scores damaged to 0 are raised to 1. Normal poison and normal disease are cured in the process of raising the subject, but magical diseases and curses are not undone. While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life. None of the dead creature?s equipment or possessions are affected in any way by this spell.
A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can?t be raised by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can?t be raised. The spell cannot bring back a creature who has died of old age.
Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The subject of the spell loses one level when it is raised, just as if it had lost a level to an energy-draining creature. This level loss cannot be repaired by any spell. If the subject is 1st level, it loses 1 point of Constitution instead. A character who died with spells prepared has a 50% chance of losing any given spell upon being raised, in addition to losing spells for losing a level. A spellcasting creature that doesn?t prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) has a 50% chance of losing any given unused spell slot as if it had been used to cast a spell, in addition to losing spell slots for losing a level.
Material Component: Worth at least 500 gp.

into the discussion about True Resurrection or Resurrection

 

[Hypersmurf]

I mean if you had to touch the body in order to cast True Ressurection, if the body wasn't obliterated, then why wouldn't you just cast a lower level spell to get the same effect. Possibly, I am looking for another excuse other than the level loss, or constitution loss. It still does not make sense to leave out the level loss, and not modify any other part of the spell.

I'm sorry? You want a reason to cast True Resurrection, apart from avoiding the permanent, irrecoverable loss of a level or point of Constitution that can never be restored, even with a Wish?

Jeez.

-Hyp.

 

[dkilgo]

Please, look at your copy of the PHB because mine clearly states for Ressurection and True Ressurection "As raise dead". Because I think that there might be a difference in our printing, or something.

 

[hammymchamham]

that is copy and pasted directly from the SRD. I didn't realize their was a difference between the PHB and SRD version

http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=srd

None the less, if the body of a being still exists, you can't just use True Resurrection without a piece of the body to resurrect them. Its clear, Target: Dead creature touched. Now if the body is wholly destroyed, the only spell that works is True Resurrection

 

[AuraSeer]

Before you go with that interpretation, you need to very carefully define what constitutes a "corpse."

Say somebody's entire body has been destroyed except for the head. Do you need the head in order to cast True Res? What if the only part left over was an arm? A finger? A small chunk of bone lodged in the molar of a T. Rex that bit the character two months ago?

Perhaps a cubic inch of flesh has been taken and preserved, for possible use with the Clone spell. The character is then hit with Destruction and utterly consumed. Do you need that piece of flesh to cast True Res? How is this different than anything in the previous situation?

If somebody has been disintegrated, the little pile of dust as part of his corpse. Would you allow True Res to work without that dust? Does your answer change if the dust has been dispersed in the wind?

The concept seems far too complicated and arbitrary. I'll stick with letting True Res work on any dead creature, whether you have the corpse or not.

 

[hammymchamham]

Before you go with that interpretation, you need to very carefully define what constitutes a "corpse."

Say somebody's entire body has been destroyed except for the head. Do you need the head in order to cast True Res? What if the only part left over was an arm? A finger? A small chunk of bone lodged in the molar of a T. Rex that bit the character two months ago?

I'd say yes you need the head, or the little part of the arm, or a finger. Its not wholly destroyed.

Perhaps a cubic inch of flesh has been taken and preserved, for possible use with the Clone spell. The character is then hit with Destruction and utterly consumed. Do you need that piece of flesh to cast True Res? How is this different than anything in the previous situation?

Without having looked at the spell Clone in quite a while, I'd say their is no difference

If somebody has been disintegrated, the little pile of dust as part of his corpse. Would you allow True Res to work without that dust?

As Res says that the dust is enough to constitute material to use the spell on, I'd say youn do.

Does your answer change if the dust has been dispersed in the wind?

This is truely a grey area, and if I were DMing and this came up, I'd let them use True Res without the dust. But a DM is certainly in the right to say otherwise

The concept seems far too complicated and arbitrary. I'll stick with letting True Res work on any dead creature, whether you have the corpse or not.

And you can, thats what rule 0 is for. I am sure their are many things I have ruled 0 that you would not. But a DM can do just the opposite and not let True Res work on any dead creature without the corpse (if such exists)

 

[Stalker0]

Before you go with that interpretation, you need to very carefully define what constitutes a "corpse."

Say somebody's entire body has been destroyed except for the head. Do you need the head in order to cast True Res? What if the only part left over was an arm? A finger? A small chunk of bone lodged in the molar of a T. Rex that bit the character two months ago?

Perhaps a cubic inch of flesh has been taken and preserved, for possible use with the Clone spell. The character is then hit with Destruction and utterly consumed. Do you need that piece of flesh to cast True Res? How is this different than anything in the previous situation?

If somebody has been disintegrated, the little pile of dust as part of his corpse. Would you allow True Res to work without that dust? Does your answer change if the dust has been dispersed in the wind?

The concept seems far too complicated and arbitrary. I'll stick with letting True Res work on any dead creature, whether you have the corpse or not.

I'm very much in agreement. You get into too many what if scenarios with the current use of the spell. I say forget the dead creature touched, and just go from there.

Also, yes there is often a difference in wording between SRD and PH. So while the SRD is a nice quick reference guide, for rules debate, its often better to look at the PH.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Before you go with that interpretation, you need to very carefully define what constitutes a "corpse."

Something that you could cast Resurrection on.

A small chunk of bone lodged in the molar of a T. Rex that bit the character two months ago?

Perhaps a cubic inch of flesh has been taken and preserved, for possible use with the Clone spell.

Neither of these were part of the character at time of death, and therefore ineligible for use with Resurrection.

If somebody has been disintegrated, the little pile of dust as part of his corpse. Would you allow True Res to work without that dust? Does your answer change if the dust has been dispersed in the wind?

I agree with Hammycham here. If the pile of dust is available, cast the spell on the dust. If it's dispersed, then the character cannot be raised with Resurrection, so TR would work.

-Hyp.