True Seeing vs Mindblank + Polymorph

[Artoomis]

Since True Seeing allows SR, I assume it is somehow 'invasive' and thus eligable for Mind Blank to protect against (it obviously gathers information).

I think there was a thread about True Seeing vs. Mind Blank not too long ago.

The "invasive" argument is wrong.

Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

So the SR and Save apply only to a creature who resists (or fails to drop SR) having True Seeing cast on them so they get the benefits. When you look at something/someone, there is no SR or Save.

 

[Roman]

I think you are entitled to rule that Mind Blank protects against True Seeing if you want to. If I were your player I would most certainly not get upset about that ruling.

BTW: How did your PCs acquire permanent True Sight? Is such a thing 'possible'?

 

[reiella]

I think you are entitled to rule that Mind Blank protects against True Seeing if you want to. If I were your player I would most certainly not get upset about that ruling.

BTW: How did your PCs acquire permanent True Sight? Is such a thing 'possible'?

Certain prestige classes can allow for that.

Incarnate can also create such a situation.

And finally, they just have a gem of true seeing that they use constantly .

 

[Artoomis]

I think you are entitled to rule that Mind Blank protects against True Seeing if you want to. If I were your player I would most certainly not get upset about that ruling...

That's a good way to put it. This is one ruling that could easily go either way.

Either you go along with the "Mind" portion of Mind Blank that makes it seem like it blocks divinations that work on you to gather information - like scrying, etc., or you go along with the more absolute statment that it blocks all divinations from working.

I tend to think that True Seeing would not be "blocked" by Mind Blank - it does not seem to fit the intention of the spell. The argument on either side works pretty well, though.

 

[rushlight]

tend to think that True Seeing would not be "blocked" by Mind Blank - it does not seem to fit the intention of the spell. The argument on either side works pretty well, though.

Yeah, I can see there's no clear-cut solution to this one...

Since there's ways to detect alignments, there's ways to foil that detection. That goes for any other spell that reveals secret or hidden information. But I just couldn't find a spell that prevents the detection of Polymorph.

So if anyone finds a spell that does that... Let me know!

Thanks!

 

[Camarath]

Either you go along with the "Mind" portion of Mind Blank that makes it seem like it blocks divinations that work on you to gather information - like scrying, etc., or you go along with the more absolute statment that it blocks all divinations from working.

If Mind Blank only blockes divinations that work on you to gather information I don't see why Arcane Eye doesn't work since it does not target the creature affected by Mind Blank and allows no save or SR and yet is stated not to see the creature. It is a Scrying effect but IMO it does seem to illustrate a broader priciple of nondectection by all divination spells and effects than just targeted divination spells and effects.

I tend to think that True Seeing would not be "blocked" by Mind Blank - it does not seem to fit the intention of the spell. The argument on either side works pretty well, though.

I think information gathered via True Seeing is pretty clearly information gathering by a divination spell. I can't see how Mind Blank would allow True Seeing to work unless True Seeing does not count as "information gathering" but I believe that is clearly the purpose of the spell.

 

[Artoomis]

...

We could go 'round and 'round on this, but it's been done before. The nearly inescapable conclusion is that you can justify looking at this either way.

 

[Camarath]

We could go 'round and 'round on this, but it's been done before. The nearly inescapable conclusion is that you can justify looking at this either way.

Can you explain to me why True Seeing would not be considered an information gathering divination spell?

 

[Pielorinho]

As a side-note, this is one reason why I don't like absolute tactics-foilers spells, like true seeing or freedom of movement. I'd much prefer the spells give massive bonuses, but bonuses that can be overcome by canny-enough opponents.

For example, true seeing could grant +20 on wills saves versus illusions, and could grant +20 on spot or search checks to see through illusions or transmutation magics, except that this bonus would not exceed the bonus granted by all magics on someone. For example, a person with true seeing would get +10 on their spot check to see through the disguise of someone with polymorph cast on them, since polymorph grants a +10 bonus on disguise checks.

Similarly, freedom of movement would grant +20 on all opposed grapple checks made to escape a grapple, and would grant +20 on all escape artist checks.

I may institute that as a house-rule.

Daniel

 

[Artoomis]

Can you explain to me why True Seeing would not be considered an information gathering divination spell?

Okay, in a nutshell, here is some old Sage advice from my website (see my signature) that still applies:

The Sage: Q: You recently answered a question regarding the Mind Blank spell vs. the effects of True Strike, stating that Mind Blank does not affect True Strike. Many people resting on both sides of the issue we're hoping you could offer an explanation as to why it does not.

A: True strike doesn't reveal anything about a particular creature, so mind blank has no effect on the spell.

Q: In addition, there have been questions raised concerning how Mind Blank functions in conjunction with other spells. For example, lets say a wizard casts Mind Blank and Improved Invisibility on himself. Does the invisibility now count as part of the caster, or is it considered a separate entity in regards to spells like See Invisibility?

A: Mind blank is not effective against see invisibility (non detection is). Mind blank protects against devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. And against scrying, which is magical information gathering conducted remotely. See invisibility is not scrying.

Q: In other words, is the Mind Blanked/Invisible wizard protected from See Invisibility? Detect Magic? True Seeing?

A: No in all three cases.

By no means is this an easy question and it's very easy to come up with a good, solid argument on either side.

My best advice is to have Mind Blank work against all spells/effects that attempt to get information on you so long as they are scry-like spells. Spells like True Strike that might be gathering information on you, but it’s pretty indirect, should still work. Detect spells also will work – Detect Magic, Detect Invisibility, etc.; Of course, emotions and thoughts are explicitly protected by the spell.

True Seeing is much more of a "detect-like" spell than it is "scry-like," so is not blocked by Mind Blank. Detecting the true state of a being is not the same as scrying for information, and is not, in my view, covered by Mind Blank.

Your view is not the same and I respect that - as I said, the argument is good either way and I'd prefer to let it rest there. I'll only make further comments if:

I'm asked to.

or

An absolute position is suggested as the "right" answer.