True Strike and Invisibility question

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Oh, BTW IMHO it says it negates concealment, invisibility is 100% concealment that is 100% negated. I don't know why it works, but it says what it does, so I'd have to guess it does what it says.

from the SRD:
"Additionally, the character is not affected by the miss chance that applies to attacks against a concealed target"

It clearly describes the target as concealed. IOW, it in no way negates the concealment. "says it negates concealment" is simply a false statement. The "miss chance" is only one benefit of concealment.

 

[Jeremy]

True enough. I stand corrected.

 

[jontherev]

I would like to direct everyone's attention to the 'Seeking' weapon enhancement from Sword and Fist. It negates miss chances caused from any source IIRC, but you still have to know where the target is. You can't just fire straight up in the sky and hope the arrow "knows" there's some invisible guy roaming around. That's how this situation should work imo. A generous DM might allow the spell to work as long as you know the general direction of the target, but I wouldn't personally.

 

[Caliban]

Ok. You are allowed your opinion.

But, it's magic Caliban. In addition, it is divination magic. It allows you to know exactly where to strike, just like it allows you to know exactly where to strike vs. Displacement.

Even magic has limits. Saying "it's magic" isn't always good enough.

Personally, I think dropping the miss chance is the crucial piece of the spell with regard to this question.

And I don't.

Why is it that True Strike negates the benefits of the 4th level Displacement? Or 2nd level Blur?

Because those spells don't stop you from targeting your enemy.

But, not 2nd level Invisibility or 1st level Obscuring Mist?

Because those spells may prevent your from targeting your enemy.

It's not that you are shooting north when the opponent is south, it's that the spell let's you know to shoot south in the first place.

And I believe you are reading more into the spell than is written in the description. It doesn't tell you where they are, it prevents you from missing because of concealment. To me, that is a very clear distinction.

It's divination magic. You DIVINE crucial information. The characters around you who have not cast a divination spell have no clue where the opponent is without other means.

I simply don't believe it divines as much as you want it to. It is not an enemy detection spell.

And, please. On the listen check idea.

Are you telling me that at 70 feet away, you can pick out the EXACT 5 foot square an invisible character is by listening?

Don't be dense KD. Notice I stated that a Listen or a Spot check can give you the information.

At range you would naturally prefer to use the Spot check instead of the Listen check, but if you are in an area of darkness and making a melee attack, then the Listen check is your only option.

And with ranged attacks, I don't think you would really need the exact 5' square, just the direction. (I.e. as long as they are in the line of squares you shoot through, the true strike spell will negate the miss chance. )

Do it blindfolded in a park with a friend. Have him be about 50 or 70 or 90 feet away and have him say a 3 second sentence in a clear voice and then walk 30 feet in a random direction and you tell me how you know where he is. Or even where he was for that matter.

This is a perfect example of a Straw Man argument.

The fact is that True Strike is one of the few spells capable of temporarily negating Invisibility and then, only for a single round for a single character.

I'm sorry, but that is not a fact.

If it can totally blow away Displacement, it's divination power is strong enough to blow away Invisibility or Obscuring Mist.

Just because it can negate one specific type of effect does not mean it can negate another specific effect. It does not remove concealment, it just negates the miss chance. You still can't see your target.

The interpretation that negating the miss chance of an invisible target actually MEANS anything is bogus.

I'm invisible. I can almost guarantee you that negating the miss chance won't do squat because you will never figure out what space I'm located within in the first place.

Bull. A DC 20 Spot check tells you this. Having someone who can see invisible telling you where to shoot tells you this.

You especially will not do that if I'm Flying and my invisibility is due to Improved Invisibility.

Wow, you mean using a 3rd level spell and 4th level spell can make you nearly immune to a 1st level spell? Wow. I never would have imagined.

Of course, there is still that DC 20 spot check. Hmm....

The negation of miss chance is basically worthless against total concealment if the spell does not divine the target's location.

Obviously not true. There are several means of determining the target's general location. They won't negate the miss chance, but they will tell you generally where the target is. True Strike won't tell you generally where the target is, but it will negate the miss chance if you already know that.

It does not make sense to get rid of the miss chance and then not let the caster know where his target is located. You basically castrate the spell with regard to total concealment and say that it only works against less than total concealment.

Now your just being stubborn.

Err, where in the spell does it say that it works great against less than total concealment, but hardly at all against total concealment? If they didn't want it to work well against total concealment, shouldn't they have indicated that crucial piece of information?

It does work aganst total concealment: It completely negates the 50% miss chance that total concealment gives you. You just have to know what direction to shoot in first.

 

[Antikinesis]

True Strike: Seeing the future.

The character gains temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during the character's next attack.

You can see the future with regard your next attack (if it's within the next round)... even complete concealment won't help your target avoid the strike... but your vision of the future can't tell you whether or not you're even hitting the right square? It won't let you know that you have no chance of hitting your target unless you're pointing the right way?

It seems completely obvious to me, but I guess everyone else feels the same way for their views on the topic.

I'm amazed that I'm siding with K.D. over Caliban. Never happened before. (No offense intended to either party!)

[EDIT]
However, I would require at least knowledge of the presence of a target before True Strike would help. If you don't know there's a target in range, you wouldn't be making an attack roll the next round anyway. If you don't make the attack whose future you're divining, then you can't divine the outcome of the attack that would have not been about to occur. And no nonsense about jumping into a room with an extended True Strike and attacking an empty corner just in case someone's there... that's nonsense, and I already have a headache from my last sentence. Ack.
[/EDIT]

-AK

 

[Caliban]

Re: True Strike: Seeing the future.

You can see the future with regard your next attack (if it's within the next round)... even complete concealment won't help your target avoid the strike... but your vision of the future can't tell you whether or not you're even hitting the right square? It won't let you know that you have no chance of hitting your target unless you're pointing the right way?

It doesn't give you perfect knowledge. That's why you only get a +20 instead of automatically hitting.

And if you shoot in the wrong direction, a +20 isn't going to help you, and you won't be missing because of concealment.

Now if you are using a ranged weapon and are shooting in the right general direction, and actually know that there is an enemy there, then as a GM I wouldn't quibble.

But casting True Strike and just shooting your arrow because there might be an enemy somewhere around won't do you any good.

If the enemy moved to the opposite side of you (compared to where they were before) and you missed your Spot and/or Listen check to notice them moving, then True Strike won't help.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

I think the key words in your quote are "during the character's next attack". The insight does not happen until DURING the attack. How can an insight that has not yet happened help you aim the right way. The ignore invisibility arguement lets the spell start BEFORE the next attack.

First - Cast True Strike
Second - Select a Target
Third - True Strike gives you an insight regarding the best shot at that target
Fourth - Resolve attack with +20 to roll and no concealment miss chance.

TS does NOTHING until after you target, thus, it can not help you do the targetting.

 

[Voadam]

From the srd on true strike

The character gains temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during the character's next attack. The character's next single attack roll (within the duration of the spell) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, the character is not affected by the miss chance that applies to attacks against a concealed target.

From a rules interpretation perspective it gives a +20 insight bonus and reduces the miss chances for concealment.

The people are still concealed and it does not reveal them.

The miss chance is only a single game mechanic aspect of being concealed.

Anything else is extrapolating out on how people think it should work, such as hong's zen true strike or KD's miss chance of concealment = concealment.

From the flavor text of what it is doing, I would not interpret it as aquiring targets. Getting a glimpse of the future will not reveal the motionless silent invisible person observing in the corner. All TS will do is make it much more likely if you do shoot into that corner that you will hit that motionless invisible silent person.

There could be a low level divination that allowed you to see invisible opponents for one attack so you could attack one knowing where it is and without the miss chances, but I do not believe that True strike does this.

 

[IceBear]

Well, I guess this is a matter of how powerful you think the divination of True Strike is on how you feel it works in this case. If you are going to allow it this much power to TS, then you should let Mind Blank stop it

Anyway, I'm of the opinion that it grants the +20 bonus on your next attack and lets you ignore the miss chance due to concealment when you *target* someone or something. If you don't know, roughly, where someone is I don't think you can target them.

Also, it grants a +20 insight bonus on your next attack roll. It's target is you, and not something else. So, if you enter a room with an invisible person in it the spell doesn't know that you are targetting the invisible person. At the instant you point your arrow in a direction and release the string you've determined your target - that's the attack roll that gets the +20 bonus. So, you shot the wall really, really, accurately. Now, if you know that there is an invisible person in a square and you target the swirling air the spell will grant your +20 bonus on the attack roll and if you hit where you're aiming you don't have to worry about the miss chance.

Anyway, that's how I would play it in my game. To do more feels like I'm reading more into it than I should be.

IceBear

 

[jontherev]

Re: True Strike: Seeing the future.

You can see the future with regard your next attack (if it's within the next round)... even complete concealment won't help your target avoid the strike... but your vision of the future can't tell you whether or not you're even hitting the right square? It won't let you know that you have no chance of hitting your target unless you're pointing the right way?

It seems completely obvious to me, but I guess everyone else feels the same way for their views on the topic.

I'm amazed that I'm siding with K.D. over Caliban. Never happened before. (No offense intended to either party!)

-AK

He does gain insight...DURING the attack. After shooting an arrow off into an area where no enemies are, he feels a sense of stupidity for casting a spell that would help him attack a target he was HOPING existed. That is his insight.

For 12.5 gp and 1 exp, who wouldn't stockpile these scrolls and cast just before entering just about every single room of a dungeon? Or the party buys a few wands of true strike and the arcane archer of the group takes a shot every time he enters a room just in case. Much cheaper than raising dead party members from ambushes.

What confuses me is how you guys are proposing this to work. After you shoot/make the attack, you no longer control what happens (sorry, no remote control arrows). Therefore, it sure sounds like you guys are proposing that sometime during the attack (must be the beginning) you are given awareness somehow of an invisible enemy AND exactly where this enemy is, even with no previous knowledge of an enemy. Otherwise, there's no way this would work. The arrow is not enchanted, so you must be shooting it precisely where it will be going (i.e. the arrow does not zig-zag around until it finds an invisible foe like some Invisibility heat-seeking missile). Therefore, I conclude that since the spell does not mention anything about enemy detection, this won't work. You need a target, and one that you can pinpoint (ranged or melee). Read the 'Seeking' ability in S&F for a similar rule. I don't have my book w/me, but I'd be really interested to know if True Strike is the spell used in the enhancement.