True20 and Modern Games

[Skywalker]

For Experts having too large a BAB, I agree that it does seem a little odd to have scientists etc with that progression. Of course, these are PC scientists, who are going to be superior.

Nice points Byrons_Ghost. I would just like to iterate that True 20 Adventure Roleplaying is designed to capture an adventurous feel. For example, Skills have been simplifed to focus on what the PCs are good at and not worry about lesser skills. Another result is a "floor" to how weak a PC should be able to go and still be on adventures. As such even these PCs are going to tend to have someway to defend themselves i.e. through Powers or a medium Combat bonus.

 

[Denaes]

The main issues that I can see, from reading over the thread:

#1 Removing the Adept and leaving only two classes leaves things as sort of limited to PC choices. I think that, in a lot of ways, this depends on the sort of campaign being run. If it's a realistic no-FX, military campaign, then it would probably be ok. If it's something like pulp or sci-fi, then the Adept should be tweaked/replaced into whatever FX are suitable for the setting. The Adept could become a steamtech engineer, for example, or a futuristic cyborg. The powers would have to be changed around a lot, but the core concept- a class who has inherent powers as their speciality- would remain the same.

That is a good idea.

Adept isn't only magic/FX, but also supernatural abilities. You could just call the abilities something else that would fit into the game and restrict which ones they could have

 

[denzoner]

...

Honestly, I can see with doing away with both the warrior and adept roles, and keeping the expert as the only role. You could then open up the restricted feats to this one class, and you'd probably be fine.

While reading this thread in it's entirety, this is what I came to a conclude myself. Except in some rural and under-developed cultures and societies, the Warrior & Adept roles have pretty much become lost arts. Most of us in the modern world are Skilled (Experts) in what we do. It's how the education system works and its how most of us are brought up. Learning skills. Only a few of us join the military and become Warriors. Even fewer of us are trained in magic or psionics. A 'fixer' or 'Socialite'? those aren't roles, they're skills & feats. The modern world is no longer a 'classed' society, at least not how it was. Everyone has become something in between. Which is exactly what the 'Expert' is. The magic (FX) system, being Feat Based, is also a perfect way for a character to 'dabble' in the arts.

So in this modern flavored campaign, that i'm developing, i'm restricting the PCs to the expert class. JUST AT FIRST. Eventually, maybe after being recruited by Dept 7, they can take on some levels of Warrior (Spec Ops or Shaolin Temple or Ra's Al Ghul's training camp? etc). or they may even take some levels in Adept (Harry Potter style?). They can 'discover' some 'inate' psionic or magic ability (by taking a feat or a level in Adept.)

Removing (at first) Warriors & Adepts fits my [developing] campaign model perfectly. The role of the Heroes? "Ordinary" folks getting caught up in extra-ordinary situations!

Modern Gamers (d20 influenced) forget that sometimes taking away is just as effective as adding new crunchy bits.

 

[Macbeth]

Thta's a really good idea. Especially for your 'average Joe' the choice of feats and skills is what really determines who you are. Only 'extraordinary' people (PCs and Named NPCs) will ever have access to real action-oriented combat training or magic. You could even argue that your standard trooper in, say, the Army, is an Expert, not a Warrior... Very good idea. My only concern would be having PCs seem too similar, but I think with the number of feats and some good role playing, it would work.

 

[MadBlue]

What Feats or Advanced Class Abilities arn't covered?

I went through and found that 98% of them had been covered in True20 or wern't applicable (related to AoO).

Honestly the only Feats that were commonly useful and missing were some of the Firearms Feats, which should be brought into True20 for a modern game.

None of the technological Advanced Class abilities are covered. Medical Miracle, for example, might not be common, but when you don't have an Adept around to cast healing spells, it's the next best thing. And once you get into d20 Future, converting the Feats and abilities over would amount to plenty of new Feats for the Expert, but not nearly as many for the warrior.

If I had my druthers, I'd put the "adventuring" type Feats into the "Expert" list, and create a new class that had access to mainly technological and social Feats.

I could easily see the Expert role for PC private investigators, international jewel thieves and other characters of a more physical bent, and a new role for PCscientists, doctors and diplomats.

MadBlue

 

[Byrons_Ghost]

I could easily see the Expert role for PC private investigators, international jewel thieves and other characters of a more physical bent, and a new role for PCscientists, doctors and diplomats.

MadBlue

I'd thought about this too, actually. My take on it was that the Experts would be more of the "doers", those that use applied knowledge, and the last class would be more intellectual. I'd also thought of keeping Expert as is, and having a third class called "The Talent", which would basically be someone who excels at a single thing instead of the Expert, which would be more of a Jack of all Trades type. Really, in a way, the Warrior and the Adept are both already classes who excel at a single thing- combat or magic. I never really thought of a way to implement the class, though.

The main thing is that the technologist or talent, or whatever, will presumably be the class with the lowest BAB, and will have to get some pretty cool stuff to compensate. I don't like the idea of giving a class a low BAB "just because it makes sense." I'll be the first to agree that scientists probably shouldn't be sharpshooters, but they have to be able to do something. Wizards get magic in place of BAB, so their modern counterparts should get something similar. Before D20 modern, there were a lot of Modern-ish games that had intellectual classes with low BAB and no real abilities to compensate, and I can't see how these classes were thought to be remotely playable...

 

[MadBlue]

Wizards get magic in place of BAB, so their modern counterparts should get something similar. Before D20 modern, there were a lot of Modern-ish games that had intellectual classes with low BAB and no real abilities to compensate, and I can't see how these classes were thought to be remotely playable...

I agree with you. I think Special Abilities like "Minor Medical Miracle", "Medical Miracle", "Build Robot", "Scientific Improvisation" etc. should be given to the Talent (or the Specialist, or what-have-you) and the social Expert Feats should also be shifted from the Expert to the Talent. It would essentially put "modern magic" in the hands of the Talent, and leave evading explosions, disappearing from sight, deflecting arrows and making surprise attacks, etc., to the Expert.

Also, there would be plenty of other modern/future Feats and Special Abilities to fill up the Expert's loss of the social Feats.

MadBlue

 

[carpedavid]

I agree with you. I think Special Abilities like "Minor Medical Miracle", "Medical Miracle", "Build Robot", "Scientific Improvisation" etc. should be given to the Talent (or the Specialist, or what-have-you) and the social Expert Feats should also be shifted from the Expert to the Talent. It would essentially put "modern magic" in the hands of the Talent.

There would be plenty of other modern/future Feats and Special Abilities to fill up the Expert's loss of the social Feats.

MadBlue

As someone else mentioned above, there is a "Special Abilities" class role already: the Adept. If you're playing in a non-FX campaign, I'd see no problem in giving the Adept a number of "modern magic" or abilities. In fact, you'd likely want to keep the mechanics that drive the adepts powers, and just re-label what their origin is; super-science instead of magic.

Honestly, you've already got most of the effects you'd want to see the role have. "Medial Miracle" sounds a lot like "Cure," just with a scientific origin instead of supernatural. Heck, just rename them "Scientific and Social Powers" instead of "Supernatural Powers," and you're pretty much good to go.

As far as moving the social Expert feats to the Adept role, I don't see the harm in opening them up to the Adept (though I'd make them General feats and not Supernatural/Scientific). However, if you actually read the description of the feats, you'd see that they all work through the use of skills, and that's the Expert's domain.

I still have yet to see a cogent argument for creating a new role, even in a non-FX campaign.

 

[MadBlue]

As someone else mentioned above, there is a "Special Abilities" class role already: the Adept. If you're playing in a non-FX campaign, I'd see no problem in giving the Adept a number of "modern magic" or abilities. In fact, you'd likely want to keep the mechanics that drive the adepts powers, and just re-label what their origin is; super-science instead of magic.

I didn't mean "magic" literally. I meant it in the sense of things that fulfill a similar role to what only magic could accomplish in a low-tech fantasy game, such as advanced life-saving techniques (Medical Miracle), robotics (Build Robot), etc.; technological things that are represented by Advanced Class abilities in d20 Modern but aren't represented in True20.

MadBlue

 

[carpedavid]

I didn't mean "magic" literally. I meant it in the sense of things that fulfill a similar role to what only magic could accomplish in a low-tech fantasy game, such as advanced life-saving techniques (Medical Miracle), robotics (Build Robot), etc.; technological things that are represented by Advanced Class abilities in d20 Modern but aren't represented in True20.

MadBlue

I think we're on the same page on this. You're suggesting a class that has "Special Abilities" which has a low BAB, saves, etc. There's already one class that fills that role called the Adept. If you replace the list of powers with ones more condusive to the setting you wish to play in (non-FX), then you can literally keep all of the Adept mechanics (power checks, feats to aquire powers, etc.) without creating a new class. In this case, your "Adept" would accomplish things through science instead of sorcery. The role he plays in the game would be the same.

Additionally, most of the "powers" that the Adept has now could easily just have a scientific flavor applied to them. A "familiar" could be a robot companion who gets upgraded as the Adept increases in power. "Cure" would be "Medical Miracle," and describes the adept's life-saving techniques.

From the discussion that I've seen here so far, people are simply trying to re-create a role that already exists: the Adept. Does that help to clarify?