D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[DND_Reborn]

that the devs play the game differently than many/most players.

Maybe you mean how the devs designed (and did their own playtesting) the game? How they play it outside of work could be anyone's guess...

They may not use feats personally, but they are included because they are generally popular.

Of course they are fairly popular as they increase your character's power and/or utility. I don't recall if they were optional in 3E, but I don't think they were? They were baked in and part of the design IIRC.

Regardless, they are optional in 5E, some tables don't allow them (I've considered that myself TBH), so some of the analysis should include work without feats IMO.

Let's just face it: 5e wasn't designed for balance. It was designed for nostalgia and flat math.

I wasn't part of the design team, so I really can't say. I am not sure what you think is "nostalgia" about it, and the flat math part has been an issue with d20 D&D since 3E came out. Bounded accuracy is a different issue IMO.

 

[TwoSix]

Let's just face it: 5e wasn't designed for balance. It was designed for nostalgia and flat math.

That's why they made big, important parts of the game optional with little thought and then provided little to no support for them after the fact.

That's hard to avoid when large swathes of the player base consider balance concerns to be actively problematic.

 

[Vaalingrade]

That's hard to avoid when large swathes of the player base consider balance concerns to be actively problematic.

D&D's worst enemy is its fan base.

 

[FrogReaver]

My biggest concern with this modelling exercise (and I’ll say it now before I’m accused of being sore), is that it becomes about min-maxing. It tells you how one optimized character plays against another optimized character. While we all know there are far more terrifying optimized builds out there (I’m looking at you sorcadin) than either fighter or wizard.

What we really want to know is how does a typical fighter compare to a typical wizard. But I think we would only get this by looking at mass data in play like from D&D beyond or some such. I.e. ever going to happen.

To be clear in my questions/suggestions I don’t doubt @EzekielRaiden or @FrogReaver are acting in good faith. Just that this kind of modeling will have some flaws.

It will still be interesting though.

That’s a valid concern. Part of my goal is to provide multiple Fighters at various optimization levels for the comparison. While it’s not a complete solution it should help minimize this concern.

 

[TwoSix]

D&D's worst enemy is its fan base.

I don't know if I'd go that far. I play with several people who consider it obvious that casters should be stronger than martials, and they're all very good players. It really does come down to an aesthetic difference.

 

[Micah Sweet]

D&D's worst enemy is its fan base.

Every franchise's worst enemy is its fan base.

 

[DND_Reborn]

When I think about class balance I fall back to SW and the Jedi. Pretty much most players want to be a Jedi because they are (or were at least) a large focus of the media/stories. Also, with their Force powers they are more powerful in many ways.

Now, it has been decades since I played WEG d6 SW, so honestly I don't remember much about it as far as balance goes, but I do remember about d20 SW and in many ways it was more balanced in power because the Force abilities of Jedi were not nearly as powerful as magic can be in D&D. So, IME balance was easier in d20 SW than it is in D&D when it comes to comparing difference classes. Of course, different classes had features which more emphasize different foci/ niches in d20 SW.

Every franchise's worst enemy is its fan base.

And, paradoxically enough, its strongest ally.

 

[Asisreo]

Is there any optional player-enhancing rule in the phb that isn't considered popular and often-used

 

[DND_Reborn]

Is there any optional player-enhancing rule in the phb that isn't considered popular and often-used

Multiclassing is about 50-60% in use at tables IIRC, so a lot of players don't use that.

Otherwise, I can't think of much off of the top of my head.

 

[TheSword]

At level 11, that is just one feat to the fighter as they max out.

Adding feats makes calculation of wizards easier as Elemental Adapt cuts out the need to adjust for resistance. Though they will only have 18 INT.

Not if feats provide greater benefit to fighter than they do to wizards (I firmly believe this is the case).

Don’t forget Elemental Adept is only going to affect one energy type.