D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[FrogReaver]

So is the current "challenge" with @FrogReaver and @EzekielRaiden to see if the Fighter can out damage the Wizard over the typical adventuring day?

It's a long thread!

If so, I would hope the fighter does (out damage the wizard) and does so decisively! It's the fighters main and mostly only schtick (outside of a few small other tricks).

For a wizard, damage is but one of multiple options, and often - especially when part of a group, far from the best one. And that's only talking about combat.

It’s to see how a fighter and wizard damages compare under our reasonable set of assumptions.

For me this exercise helps explore the limitations and merits of the arguments that fighters are strong enough at combat that they are justified in missing out on out of combat features. Or alternatively that they are strong enough at combat that they can sacrifice some combat prowess while still remaining good at it and gain some out of combat capabilities.

 

[TheSword]

My point is that at level 11, both fighters and wizards would only have 1 feat.

After level 12, it changes but depending on build.

I’m confused. Why is this?

Variant race puts both on 1 feat, plus a fighter gives an additional ASI/Feat at 6th over a wizard.

Plus with variant race and one of the half ASI feats a character can start with 18 in one stat. So only needs +2 more to max out their primary. So the 6th level and 8th level ASI could both go on additional feats.

I might be missing something though. Apologies if I’m not following things.

Edited to change variant human to variant race.

 

[FrogReaver]

FWIW my experience is very different. Once you have a 16, increasing scores fall to the wayside compared to the features you can get from most feats. Many feats players take are half-feats, allowing them to increase an ability score over two half-feats and gain other cool features to go with it.

I think alot depends on whether you are a caster or a martial.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

By level 11 a Wizard can cast Animate Objects four times per day, so Fighter boi might be in for a challenge.

 

[Maxperson]

Notice how the feat use drastically increases higher the level goes. I’d wager most of characters are in campaigns that allow feats but many of them simply choose to take ASIs instead. Feats only become attractive once you’ve maxed your main stat, and that tends to indicate high level.

I wouldn't call 10% a drastic increase. Excepting variant humans, feat usage starts at 32% at under 12th level and rises to 42% post 12th level.

Now, those numbers could be off. How many non-feat PCs created on d&d beyond are for convention usage and it's easier to not worry about feats? There are other reasons that ot might not be entirely accurate as well.

My personal belief is that a simple majority of tables allow feats and that the numbers are low. I don't believe that it's the overwhelming majority you suggested earlier, though.

 

[Mort]

I’m confused. Why is this?

Variant human puts both on 1 feat, plus a fighter gives an additional ASI/Feat at 6th over a wizard.

Plus with variant human and one of the half ASI feats a character can start with 18 in one stat. So only needs +2 more to max out their primary. So the 6th level and 8th level ASI could both go on additional feats.

I might be missing something though. Apologies if I’m not following things.

With standard point buy? How?

15 to the stat, +1, +1 half feat = 17. How do you get to 18?

 

[TheSword]

With standard point buy? How?

15 to the stat, +1, +1 half feat = 17. How do you get to 18?

You know what, I meant to say variant race, instead of variant human! Thanks for the spot [Edited previous post.]

 

[FrogReaver]

I wouldn't call 10% a drastic increase. Excepting variant humans, feat usage starts at 32% at under 12th level and rises to 42% post 12th level.

Now, those numbers could be off. How many non-feat PCs created on d&d beyond are for convention usage and it's easier to not worry about feats? There are other reasons that ot might not be entirely accurate as well.

My personal belief is that a simple majority of tables allow feats and that the numbers are low. I don't believe that it's the overwhelming majority you suggested earlier, though.

To me the data indicates that at least 42% of players will eventually choose to take a feat (including games where they are banned). Probably a bit higher than 42% in reality but without the data we can’t get a breakdown for characters of level 17+ (for example) and how many of them have feats.

*ignoring issues around potential selection bias

 

[FrogReaver]

By level 11 a Wizard can cast Animate Objects four times per day, so Fighter boi might be in for a challenge.

I think a fireball of equal level will do similar damage under our assumptions.

 

[Minigiant]

Okay. But if that’s the complaint there is a simple solution.

A level 12 pc gets the same number of feats as a variant human pc at level 11. All else stays pretty similar for damage purposes. So still should be a useful comparison for non-variant humans.

Shouldn't be a problem as long as both only get one feat.