Trying to break flurry of blows lately...

[ForumFerret]

Technically, I break Flurry of Blows by trading Flurry of Blows for Decisive Strike.

Go with high Strength, high Dex, High Con. Everything else is gravy.

You want to take Imp. Natural Attack [Unarmed Strike] (improve your damage die by one size category), Intuitive Strike (+Wisdom Mod to Attack rolls), Snap Kick (after all other attacks, make an additional attack. All attacks are taken at -2), and be a Dwarf so you can take Hammer Fist (when fighting unarmed and when you have both hands free, add 1.5 Str bonus to all unarmed attacks). This typically takes me until at least level six to get the basics in place (Snap kick requires +6 BAB iirc)

Really, this build works better if you just dip monk for unarmed, stunning fist or Imp. Grapple, and Decisive Strike, then go Fighter (or even Warblade!) until you can get into Deepwarden and Shou Disciple.

Combat routine once you get snap kick is get up in your enemy's face, Decisive Strike (Full round action; give up all normal attacks for a single attack at double damage. For a Dwarf Monk, you're looking at (1d10+1.5xStrMod)x2, then Snap Kick fires for another (1d10+1.5StrMod)x2.

Later on in life, you get yourself Combat Reflexes and Robillars Gambit and Karmic Strike, so you do 2 attacks per round plus an attack every time someone attempts to strike you plus an additional attack for every time they actually SUCCEED in striking you. Add in something fun like Imp. Trip and Defensive sweep and/or defensive throw for extra chuckles, and remember that because of Decisive Strike, that's all at double damage.

Keen, eh?

 

[Popertop]

WALL O TEXT
tl;dr: Look into Disarm, Poison Use, Ranged Monk/Ranged Flurry, TWF/Flurry and crits


I don't really like decisive strike, I like the idea of hitting a lot with flurry. Maybe if it was offered with other class features like a tactical feat? Like there are three or five schools you pick to study from when you choose Monk. Each school affects the class abilities you get, and which bonus feats you have access to. My DM is actually going to work with me and try to create a new monk class based on this system.
Dwarves though are definitely one of the best races besides human for monk.

Guys, I think you all are seriously underrating Disarm.
I mean, of course it doesn't work on natural attacks, but there are tons of ways to get around grapple and trip, and you guys seem to love those.
If a monk disarms somebody so that they are fighting unarmed, the provokes an attack of opportunity, would the monk get an attack of opportunity since the other combatant is fighting unarmed? The other option is fighting armed with a pair of Sais (lol Raphael) which doesn't seem like a bad idea at all for a Monk/ShouDisciple/Fighter/Weaponmaster. What other classes after that are good for that build?

Another thing to consider is immunity to poisons. Couldn't a monk coat his unarmed strike in contact poison? Then make touch attacks to deliver them? This is another reason Monks work great in conjunction with Rogues. The rogue sneaks behind, while the monk pesters various characters, then the Rogue comes out of hiding to deliver a sneak attack, the monk walks over and helps him flank. If a rogue takes Disembowling strike, has wounding on his weapons along with a con/str poison, that drops the enemy fort save, so the monk can casually Stunning fist with impunity. But the monk could also do this on his own. I know sunder/eagle claw isn't optimal, but the imagery it evokes is awesome, a monk tearing the equipment of a seasoned warrior to shreds right in front of his eyes, with his BARE HANDS. Enemies should have to make will saves to not be intimidated after that, for realz. Sunder their armor/shield, so you can deliver your poison, or if you are strength based, trip and poison them with your extra trip attack. What other ways are there to rape their fort save or make your stunning attacks more effective? I know Freezing the lifeblood is good(paralyze instead of stun), especially when combined with Death Strike(coup de grace as standard action instead of full round), meaning you can use a partial to paralyze them, then coup de grace as a standard, lather rinse repeat. Of course, you could argue that use of poison goes against the grain for a Lawful Neutral character. But I have an idea floating around of a Rogue and Monk traveling together, and the Rogue shows the monk how to use poisons. But these characters are closer to the evil side of the spectrum, more like anti-heroes, kind of a fall from grace situation that occurs as a result of stuff happening to the Monks original party that shakes his belief in the monastic order. That's more roleplay specific, but that's the aspect of the monk I find most interesting.

Another option is using a Ranged attack monk. Most of the monks special weapons are terrible (shuriken is d2) and he's going to be sub-par when compared to other ranged attackers, but if you combine monk with Master Thrower, then you can take Palm throw(throw two small weapons with single toss, applies to shuriken, daggers, not sure what the size requirement is), Tumbling Toss(ranged attack as part of a standard tumble action), and Weak spot(don't remember what this does, but it's basically master thrower's best trick). So then you can flurry at a distance and be awesome. You could also go Shou Disciple for Martial Flurry, and flurry with daggers or kukri or whatever else you want. Remember that Monks can flurry at range with special monk weapons, so once you get martial flurry you can also ranged flurry with those same weapons. I don't really know what good throwing weapons there are, tbh.
Does Shiba Protector give wisdom bonus to attack ranged as well as melee?

Speaking of Kukri, if you get martial flurry any, and you have greater flurry, and two weapon fighting, that makes for a lot of chances to crit somebody with improved crit Kukri (or any similar weapon that has 18-20 crit range) What else is good for a crit heavy build, or this focus in particluar?

 

[milo]

I might have missed it, but I didn't see a monk's belt and superior unarmed strike from the Bo9S, between the 2 you treat yourself as 9 levels higher for your unarmed attack. I had a level 11 monk dealing damage as a large 20th level monk with those and improved natural attack. So at 11th level you could be dealing 4D8 damage with each hit, for the cost of two feats and one item at approximately 13k gold. Throw bracers of lightning in the mix for another 11k to add D6 shocking damage to each hit.

 

[Popertop]

I don't really like doing absurd amounts of damage, and my play group is more conservative and I guess frown on power gaming. They really like to preserve the balance of the system, and role play is pretty important, granting us bonus experience for doing it (nothing huge, but it's nice to get +100 exp every now and again), and the story is most important for the adventure, because without the story, there is no D&D. If the characters grow too powerful then the CR is thrown off completely, and it doesn't make sense for the characters to have supremely powerful equipment. I believe that if you want powerful items and legendary weapons, you have to quest for them. If you really want a powerful character, you need to earn it through role-play and overcoming very difficult challenges (these could be intellectual puzzles, a hard fight, having to survive when split up from your party, etc., requires creative DMing, and more than one DM for the split party option, but could possibly be extremely rewarding). This would help you feel like you deserve the weapon, or feat, or whatever you were questing for and makes you identify with your character more and really feel like you are part of the world you adventure in. Immersive experience is the best kind of experience, and this is especially true with D&D.

That being said I don't play bad characters (after all, it doesn't make sense for a character to go on an adventure if they suck at everything).
It's just annoying when you play with people who are like "rah I'm a fighter, I hit him, I hit him, I hit him again" it leads to stale fights and boring encounters.

I really like having lots of options. I enjoy playing resourceful, varied characters that can really find their way out of a jam. If I just powergame and try to break the monks unarmed damage, that doesn't give me as much of an incentive to role-play and flesh out a characters personality, and is a jarring break of the fourth wall. The monk's strength should come from technique and perfecting his body, not straight brute strength. That means to me fleshing out different strategies for Stunning Fist, finding interesting ways to use monk abilities (delivering contact poison with your hands), or designing new monk abilities entirely (new feats, like tactical feats dealing with monks exclusively, too many tactical feats are poorly designed and not worth taking even if you focus exclusively on the benefits provided, there are of course a couple exceptions), and making the best out of Flurry.

Sorry if I sound like a broken record through all this, I just needed to type this stuff out. It helps me to just summarize things like this, or at least how I view it. No offense to anyone, but I think dex based Monks are the way to go, I would only build a strength monk if I rolled up a dwarf and took deepwarden.

 

[Dandu]

Guys, I think you all are seriously underrating Disarm.
I mean, of course it doesn't work on natural attacks, but there are tons of ways to get around grapple and trip, and you guys seem to love those.

People do not rate Disarming high because there is an 8 gp mundane item that gives a +10 to disarm checks to retain one's weapon. This is a problem because monks start out with a lower disarm check by default due to 3/4th BAB.

If a monk disarms somebody so that they are fighting unarmed, the provokes an attack of opportunity, would the monk get an attack of opportunity since the other combatant is fighting unarmed?

Unless the opponent is punching with a gauntlet on. Or uses armor spikes. Gauntlets come with heavier armor, and armor spikes are cheap.

The other option is fighting armed with a pair of Sais (lol Raphael) which doesn't seem like a bad idea at all for a

Sais (and unarmed strikes, for that matter), being light weapons, take a -4 penalty to disarming while the wielder of a two handed weapon gets a +4 bonus.

The Sai's +4 bonus just cancels out the penalty, but fighting with two Sais deals 1d4 damage... which means that the thing is worse than a quarterstaff in that department, since the quarterstaff is a two handed weapon that can be flurried for 1d6 damage.

The quarterstaff can also be used two handed for power attack and costs less than the Sai. It seems that Donatello had it right.

I know sunder/eagle claw isn't optimal, but the imagery it evokes is awesome, a monk tearing the equipment of a seasoned warrior to shreds right in front of his eyes, with his BARE HANDS.

Destroying your WLB is not usually a good idea.

Also, "The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a sunder attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a -4 penalty. If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category. "

You also have to overcome 10 harness and deal a few points of damage to destroy most mundane metal weapons.

Assuming you get INA at level 6, you deal 1d10 points of damage. Without a decent strength score (14 or higher), you can't reliably sunder nonmagical metal weapons. At higher levels, you face magical weapons which have more hardness and HP.

Most people don't like sundering for the above reasons.

No offense to anyone, but I think dex based Monks are the way to go, I would only build a strength monk if I rolled up a dwarf and took deepwarden.

Please. Everyone knows that real monks use UMD.

 

[Popertop]

People do not rate Disarming high because there is an 8 gp mundane item that gives a +10 to disarm checks to retain one's weapon. This is a problem because monks start out with a lower disarm check by default due to 3/4th BAB.

Unless the opponent is punching with a gauntlet on. Or uses armor spikes. Gauntlets come with heavier armor, and armor spikes are cheap.

Alright, well it kinda stinks that they shafted disarm right off the bat, but I'm sure not EVERYONE uses that item? What is the item anyway? Is it just something that fits on the weapon with no disadvantage?

You got me on the sais, I'm just kinda frustrated with all the bad monk weapons.

Destroying your WLB is not usually a good idea.

I know that I was just talking about the imagery it evokes.

Also, "The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a sunder attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a -4 penalty. If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category. "

You also have to overcome 10 hardness and deal a few points of damage to destroy most mundane metal weapons.

I remember reading somewhere that you can ignore the hardness of the material you are striking with the monks attacks.

Assuming you get INA at level 6, you deal 1d10 points of damage. Without a decent strength score (14 or higher), you can't reliably sunder nonmagical metal weapons. At higher levels, you face magical weapons which have more hardness and HP.

Most people don't like sundering for the above reasons.



Please. Everyone knows that real monks use UMD.
Sorry I'm a noob, I'll read up all on that stuff

Replies in bold.

Well, there is still ranged attacking, and using poison coated fists.

But as far as an armed monk,
how good are clawed gauntlets?

Also, I really want an AoO build.
What is the best for that build?

 

[ForumFerret]

best AoO build is probably a spiked-chain or Halberd wielding flurry-tripper with combat reflexes and defensive sweep.

 

[Dandu]

Replies in bold.

Ok, here's the first problem: When I quote your post, I don't get to reply to your bolded responses. It's a little inconvenient.

Alright, well it kinda stinks that they shafted disarm right off the bat, but I'm sure not EVERYONE uses that item? What is the item anyway? Is it just something that fits on the weapon with no disadvantage?

Locked Gauntlet. Makes it a full round action to change weapons. It's pretty good if you use it on a good weapon.

I remember reading somewhere that you can ignore the hardness of the material you are striking with the monks attacks.

I don't remember reading anything of the sort.

Sorry I'm a noob, I'll read up all on that stuff

Don't. Giacomo's an idiot.

 

[milo]

I have never seen that monks ignore hardness of items either, but there is the Eagle Claw Attack that lets you add your wisdom modifier to damage against objects, that would help get past some of the hardness. It is in complete warrior.

 

[milo]

I don't really like doing absurd amounts of damage, and my play group is more conservative and I guess frown on power gaming. They really like to preserve the balance of the system, and role play is pretty important, granting us bonus experience for doing it (nothing huge, but it's nice to get +100 exp every now and again), and the story is most important for the adventure, because without the story, there is no D&D. If the characters grow too powerful then the CR is thrown off completely, and it doesn't make sense for the characters to have supremely powerful equipment. I believe that if you want powerful items and legendary weapons, you have to quest for them. If you really want a powerful character, you need to earn it through role-play and overcoming very difficult challenges (these could be intellectual puzzles, a hard fight, having to survive when split up from your party, etc., requires creative DMing, and more than one DM for the split party option, but could possibly be extremely rewarding). This would help you feel like you deserve the weapon, or feat, or whatever you were questing for and makes you identify with your character more and really feel like you are part of the world you adventure in. Immersive experience is the best kind of experience, and this is especially true with D&D.

I don't think either item that I mentioned was overly powerful or expensive, especially at 11th level. It also gets you away from the boring items like cloak of res, ring of prot, etc. If I have to quest for a specific item when playing a monk a monk's robe would probably be pretty high on the list. I have never as a DM or a player quested for or seen someone quest for a feat, I have always thought that gaining experience for battle or roleplaying was the questing for feats, otherwise everyone would be questing for a feat at least every 3rd level, fighters almost every level. If you do that do you stop at feats, what about new spell levels or skill points.

I really like having lots of options. I enjoy playing resourceful, varied characters that can really find their way out of a jam. If I just powergame and try to break the monks unarmed damage, that doesn't give me as much of an incentive to role-play and flesh out a characters personality, and is a jarring break of the fourth wall. The monk's strength should come from technique and perfecting his body, not straight brute strength. That means to me fleshing out different strategies for Stunning Fist, finding interesting ways to use monk abilities (delivering contact poison with your hands), or designing new monk abilities entirely (new feats, like tactical feats dealing with monks exclusively, too many tactical feats are poorly designed and not worth taking even if you focus exclusively on the benefits provided, there are of course a couple exceptions), and making the best out of Flurry.

The feats I mentioned, superior unarmed strike and improved natural attack don't rely on brute strength, and actually with those feats you can ignore strength to a greater degree and still be effective in combat. Pick up weapon finesse or intuitive attack and you can have a strength of 10 and still be very effective. Also by taking intuitive attack you can dump almost everything into wisdom and have decent stunning fist DC.