D&D General trying to make an alien-themed race but they keep turning into elves, help.

[Steampunkette]

@Mind of tempest

Sure. They're "Just Dromites" if you make them act like dromites as opposed to... something that isn't dromites.

So the only similarity between everything I suggested and Dromites is that the lil' bug folk have 4 'castes' which aren't actually castes and have nothing to do with social position or order but are meant to turn a group of four dromites into the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Everything else? Utterly different. Dromites have no sex or gender outside two individuals the queen and her consort, their castes are the four humors with a new name. They're not punny or lascivious or fart-jokey, they're all psionic, they've got chitinous exoskeletons, live in hives, have 'life bonds' instead of 'families', and they interact with the world with their antennae for both smell and blind-fighting benefits (3.5).

My intention was to tug at the edge of your thought process, there, and provide other aspects to move into that were away from elves. Punny, Fart Jokes, Lasciviousness? All of it is meant to show irreverence. To break out of the noble dethatched benevolent elder mindset. Having distinct biological and physiological differences resulting in various societal and cultural roles for the same reason, because it breaks up the "Elfness" across different ideas and ideals some of which may even be antagonistic to each other to create new socio-political structures. The reference to Cadence to break out of the smooth and standard high elf enunciation for something swift, stoccato, brusque, or laconic like a stoner, or Shatnerian like... well. Shatner.

Who is distinctly not elf.

So the limits of elfness? Don't exist. Particularly not when a single aspect of a people is enough to trigger "Just Dromites" as a comparison. Anything that is remotely elflike is going to trigger your "Space Elves" thing and unfortunately most of what elves are is just "Human, but" so it's probably all gonna trigger that feeling.

 

[bedir than]

I'd start at the beginning

Why do you want mystical not-elves? What story is the table trying to tell together that needs this new race?

 

[Mind of tempest]

@Mind of tempest

Sure. They're "Just Dromites" if you make them act like dromites as opposed to... something that isn't dromites.

So the only similarity between everything I suggested and Dromites is that the lil' bug folk have 4 'castes' which aren't actually castes and have nothing to do with social position or order but are meant to turn a group of four dromites into the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Everything else? Utterly different. Dromites have no sex or gender outside two individuals the queen and her consort, their castes are the four humors with a new name. They're not punny or lascivious or fart-jokey, they're all psionic, they've got chitinous exoskeletons, live in hives, have 'life bonds' instead of 'families', and they interact with the world with their antennae for both smell and blind-fighting benefits (3.5).

My intention was to tug at the edge of your thought process, there, and provide other aspects to move into that were away from elves. Punny, Fart Jokes, Lasciviousness? All of it is meant to show irreverence. To break out of the noble dethatched benevolent elder mindset. Having distinct biological and physiological differences resulting in various societal and cultural roles for the same reason, because it breaks up the "Elfness" across different ideas and ideals some of which may even be antagonistic to each other to create new socio-political structures. The reference to Cadence to break out of the smooth and standard high elf enunciation for something swift, stoccato, brusque, or laconic like a stoner, or Shatnerian like... well. Shatner.

Who is distinctly not elf.

So the limits of elfness? Don't exist. Particularly not when a single aspect of a people is enough to trigger "Just Dromites" as a comparison. Anything that is remotely elflike is going to trigger your "Space Elves" thing and unfortunately most of what elves are is just "Human, but" so it's probably all gonna trigger that feeling.

a race with biological caste tends to be hive based as that is the only known way those come about, internal variation hence me comparing to the only know prebuilt race with that as a phenomenon plus dromite are borderline blank slates past hives and psionics.

I appreciate you trying to get me out of the thought trap that leads to elfdom but the world you chose sound more like charicter trait that can be a mixed bag and acidentally making the kender is even worse than remaking elves.
can you give me idea how irreverent might look on the large scale as I do not know what it would look like?
I am trying to concive of two great psycological traits them that would be interesting in high quanities.

I'd start at the beginning

Why do you want mystical not-elves? What story is the table trying to tell together that needs this new race?

a story that has no elves in it for starters.
people tend to start with fairly dumb things when they start conceiving a dnd story.

 

[bedir than]

a race with biological caste tends to be hive based as that is the only known way those come about, internal variation hence me comparing to the only know prebuilt race with that as a phenomenon plus dromite are borderline blank slates past hives and psionics.

I appreciate you trying to get me out of the thought trap that leads to elfdom but the world you chose sound more like charicter trait that can be a mixed bag and acidentally making the kender is even worse than remaking elves.
can you give me idea how irreverent might look on the large scale as I do not know what it would look like?
I am trying to concive of two great psycological traits them that would be interesting in high quanities.

a story that has no elves in it for starters.
people tend to start with fairly dumb things when they start conceiving a dnd story.

I expect the reason you're struggling to get to a world without elves is that you are centering elves in your creative process. By thinking about them constantly they will appear.

Focus on the story you're telling together and the proper racial makeup comes together quickly

 

[Steampunkette]

a race with biological caste tends to be hive based as that is the only known way those come about, internal variation hence me comparing to the only know prebuilt race with that as a phenomenon plus dromite are borderline blank slates past hives and psionics.

I appreciate you trying to get me out of the thought trap that leads to elfdom but the world you chose sound more like charicter trait that can be a mixed bag and acidentally making the kender is even worse than remaking elves.
can you give me idea how irreverent might look on the large scale as I do not know what it would look like?
I am trying to concive of two great psycological traits them that would be interesting in high quanities.

a story that has no elves in it for starters.
people tend to start with fairly dumb things when they start conceiving a dnd story.

A race with a biological caste tends to be hive based 'cause writers decided it should be hive based. But look at octopi and birds.

Both use different forms of dimorphic camouflage in order to manipulate their gene pool. For octopi, 'sneaky males' present a female octopus appearance on one side of their body (Towards a nearby aggressive male looking to mate) and on their other side present a male octopus appearance (towards a nearby female looking to mate).

Similarly, there are male birds who look like female birds in order to get over to the girl birds while aggressive males kill each other in mating and territorial disputes so they can mate.

But these examples are, really, just skin-deep modifications to effect a new breeding strategy in a given species.

Both of those examples, and also every hive species, are dioecious. You could also have a monoecious species that is physiologically distinct in appearance across their life span, or a flat out quadoecious species wherein there are 4 gametes involved in reproduction. Or go Star Trek with the Vissian species and have a trioecious species that requires a cogenitor to mate. Several types of Nematodes are trioecious as are some plants are triecious, but so far as we can tell it's kinda unstable.

Generally speaking Trioecious species arise from gynoecious or androecious species wherein there exists a quasi-stable population of hermaphroditic entities fulfilling the other 'half' of a dioecious bonding that slowly becomes a monosexual portion of the population leading to an ultimately dioecious species, but this -is- fantasy, after all.

You could also have a Monoecious or Dioecious or Trioecious or Quadoecious species that exists in the way it does through genetic manipulation as a cultural active decision. Straight up -creating- new breeding patterns or methods, or narrowing requirements for breeding, through extensive genetic modification.

Psychological traits? Kinda difficult to dole out without painting the people with a broad brush. Still.

1) Jovial. Make them playful and jokey and irreverent and fun. Have them tell jokes and stories and laugh boldly.
2) Obsequious. Weak of will, they go along with pretty much anything to avoid confrontation and do their best to appease whomever they can.
3) Reflective. Their culture is very hidden because when they meet someone they reflexively adopt that person's personality and identity as a survival instinct while their own cultural norms are utterly subsumed in the moment.
4) Hyperreligiosity. Could be antagonistic, could be beatific, but everything revolves around one or more gods that may or may not exist. Their culture, their slang, their identity, is tied up in the divine.
5) Cunning. All smiles and handshakes to your face, paranoid scheming as you turn away. Afraid of being betrayed, they plan endless betrayals in response to nothing.
6) Passive Aggression. Unable to actively, aggressively, engage with others they alternately snark and placate.
7) Mood Swings. Rapid, sudden, harsh emotional swings from happiness to anger to sorrow and onward. A people with minimal emotional regulation would be interesting.

 

[Steampunkette]

Horrifying thought:

A multioecious society that uses extensive genetic modification to ensure that several other members of the species cannot produce offspring -except- with members of a higher, more socially powerful, caste. There's a lot of potential digging into the human psyche that could be done, there.

Like a 4-sex society genetically modified by the most dominant caste to essentially be dioecious, but totally not. The first caste can produce offspring within their own caste and the second caste. Second caste can produce offspring with first and third caste but not their own caste. Third caste can produce offspring with second, third, and fourth caste individuals. Fourth caste can ONLY reproduce with 3rd caste.

You'd wind up with a species with a tiny 4th caste minority whose ability to have children is controlled entirely by the caste above them, which is the "Freest Caste" who can produce up, down, or sideways. Then there's the Up and Down Caste that cannot reproduce internally, and the top caste which can elevate others or reproduce internally.

You wanna make a sci-fi allegory for eugenics as part of class theory... that's probably as powerful as it gets.

The weakest members are essentially sterilized by the society, only allowed to reproduce when someone of a higher caste allows it. Or Forces it.

That higher caste considers itself to be the "Free Caste" because they can reproduce with just about everyone... but they can never have offspring in the highest levels of society.

Then you get a caste that can climb or descend with each generation, but who will probably mostly descend outside of the rare and random "One in a million" who gets to be with someone in a higher caste.

And then the caste that actually holds all the power which largely keeps their power in the family but occasionally dips down for some genetic diversity to avoid too much inbreeding.

... that is horrific.

 

[Mind of tempest]

I expect the reason you're struggling to get to a world without elves is that you are centering elves in your creative process. By thinking about them constantly they will appear.

Focus on the story you're telling together and the proper racial makeup comes together quickly

can you elaborate on how that second point would work?

A race with a biological caste tends to be hive based 'cause writers decided it should be hive based. But look at octopi and birds.

Both use different forms of dimorphic camouflage in order to manipulate their gene pool. For octopi, 'sneaky males' present a female octopus appearance on one side of their body (Towards a nearby aggressive male looking to mate) and on their other side present a male octopus appearance (towards a nearby female looking to mate).

Similarly, there are male birds who look like female birds in order to get over to the girl birds while aggressive males kill each other in mating and territorial disputes so they can mate.

But these examples are, really, just skin-deep modifications to effect a new breeding strategy in a given species.

Both of those examples, and also every hive species, are dioecious. You could also have a monoecious species that is physiologically distinct in appearance across their life span, or a flat out quadoecious species wherein there are 4 gametes involved in reproduction. Or go Star Trek with the Vissian species and have a trioecious species that requires a cogenitor to mate. Several types of Nematodes are trioecious as are some plants are triecious, but so far as we can tell it's kinda unstable.

the writers are copying the idea from the real world as large highly distinct biology, not of the two sex base are more or less unheard of outside of it.
I am aware of the existence of things such as sneaky males but given what they are when put in human contexts are both highly illegal and is the on the list of worst things to do to another human being I refuse it out of moral principle, plus I do not want to look like I advocate trying to mate by deception.

dioecious is likely the dominant form across the entire universe and large areas of the multiverse for it simplicity and practicality and out-compete most other forms for good reasons.

blindly alien does not lead to an interesting race.

change across the life span is a cool idea but difficult to do, I have heard people did it for the types of goblin.

You could also have a Monoecious or Dioecious or Trioecious or Quadoecious species that exists in the way it does through genetic manipulation as a cultural active decision. Straight up -creating- new breeding patterns or methods, or narrowing requirements for breeding, through extensive genetic modification.

It sounds really eugenicy to some people.

Psychological traits? Kinda difficult to dole out without painting the people with a broad brush. Still.

1) Jovial. Make them playful and jokey and irreverent and fun. Have them tell jokes and stories and laugh boldly.
2) Obsequious. Weak of will, they go along with pretty much anything to avoid confrontation and do their best to appease whomever they can.
3) Reflective. Their culture is very hidden because when they meet someone they reflexively adopt that person's personality and identity as a survival instinct while their own cultural norms are utterly subsumed in the moment.
4) Hyperreligiosity. Could be antagonistic, could be beatific, but everything revolves around one or more gods that may or may not exist. Their culture, their slang, their identity, is tied up in the divine.
5) Cunning. All smiles and handshakes to your face, paranoid scheming as you turn away. Afraid of being betrayed, they plan endless betrayals in response to nothing.
6) Passive Aggression. Unable to actively, aggressively, engage with others they alternately snark and placate.
7) Mood Swings. Rapid, sudden, harsh emotional swings from happiness to anger to sorrow and onward. A people with minimal emotional regulation would be interesting.

right area but complicated to not make annoying, you got more?

 

[Mind of tempest]

Horrifying thought:

A multioecious society that uses extensive genetic modification to ensure that several other members of the species cannot produce offspring -except- with members of a higher, more socially powerful, caste. There's a lot of potential digging into the human psyche that could be done, there.

Like a 4-sex society genetically modified by the most dominant caste to essentially be dioecious, but totally not. The first caste can produce offspring within their own caste and the second caste. Second caste can produce offspring with first and third caste but not their own caste. Third caste can produce offspring with second, third, and fourth caste individuals. Fourth caste can ONLY reproduce with 3rd caste.

You'd wind up with a species with a tiny 4th caste minority whose ability to have children is controlled entirely by the caste above them, which is the "Freest Caste" who can produce up, down, or sideways. Then there's the Up and Down Caste that cannot reproduce internally, and the top caste which can elevate others or reproduce internally.

You wanna make a sci-fi allegory for eugenics as part of class theory... that's probably as powerful as it gets.

The weakest members are essentially sterilized by the society, only allowed to reproduce when someone of a higher caste allows it. Or Forces it.

That higher caste considers itself to be the "Free Caste" because they can reproduce with just about everyone... but they can never have offspring in the highest levels of society.

Then you get a caste that can climb or descend with each generation, but who will probably mostly descend outside of the rare and random "One in a million" who gets to be with someone in a higher caste.

And then the caste that actually holds all the power which largely keeps their power in the family but occasionally dips down for some genetic diversity to avoid too much inbreeding.

... that is horrific.

that is horrific I might save this for later I have been workshopping some ideas on how to make a believable dystopian society that makes it to space and interacts with other alien societies that are paradoxically more familiar to us.

how ever that is for a later time I am trying to make a fantasy alien race.

 

[Steampunkette]

How about Mercantile?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I expect the reason you're struggling to get to a world without elves is that you are centering elves in your creative process. By thinking about them constantly they will appear.

Elfception!