Trying to make dual-wielding a bit better

[Korgan26]

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Off the top of my head, would this help lessen the suck factor?

TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL]
(as PHB, but you get one additional off-hand attack at BAB +6 and BAB +11--as per standard ITWF & GTWF)

IMPROVED TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL]Prerequisites: Dex 17, Two-Weapon Fighting base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: Your penalties for fighting with two weapons are reduced by one.

GREATER TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL]Prerequisites: Dex 19, Two-Weapon Fighting base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: Your penalties for fighting with two weapons are reduced by one.
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This is good. the other line of thought looked as if it was working on developing a perfect twf at a lower level.

Z

 

[Aaron2]

I had a thought while walking the dog today. What if all attacks added the Strength bonus straight no matter what they were? Light, two-handed, one-handed etc. That's how it was in all previous versions. That way the TWF would be hitting for 1d8+Str + 1d8+Str while the 2 hander would be hitting for 2d6+Str.

I thought of it while I was thinking of a simpler [basic] version of the rules. As a DM, I hate trying to figure out how much damage is done when a player gets some odd amount of temporarily strength bonus.


Aaron

 

[Kemrain]

I was suprised that the Two Weapon Defense feat grants only a 1 point Shield bonus, and doesn't impose the two weapon fightng penalty on the on-hand weapon's attacks. I'd have bumped it up to a +2, and kept the 2 weapon penalty ot the on-hand weapon's attack rolls, because you're still swinging the second weapon around, just not tryin's to whack the other guy with it. Then again, this only really comes out if you're using a light weapon in your off-hand, which, though most people do, E1ven's example did not. I think that TWF granting iterative attacks with your off-hand is a wonderful idea, and goes a long way to open up this combat route to people who normally wouldn't do it. Hell, I could even see someone using a Bastard sword in their on-hand, and switching to a 2handed fighting stance when it was useful. Making 3 feats into 1 feat makes this possible, and though it makes TWF a very powerful feat, it's still not going to be the best option in most cases.

On the lines of that Dual Strike feat... What if we made it like Manyshot, giving it one attack roll to hit with both weapons at once, applying sneak attack once, and making it a standard action, so it could be used with Spring Attack. That could be balanced, right? It's been offered up before, though I'm not sure who came up with the idea. Whoever they are, they should get the credit.

- Kemrain the Off-Handed

 

[Kemrain]

I was thinking about it, and I think I'm looking at a means of solving the TWF issue, or at least making it a little more balanced.

First, make the Two Weapon Fighitng feat give an automatic iterative attack with the off-hand to scale with the on-hand.

Second, I was heading in the right direction with the feat I mentioned in my last post, the Dual Strike feat, basically a Manyshot for melee weapons. It would allow the user to make 1 attack with both weapons, as a standard action, throwing in the 1x and .5x strength bonuses together, and making it in every way like a 2 handed weapon attack. Even in the power attack department- give this attack the +2 damage/-1 to-hit that a 2 handed weapon gets.

Now, that's not all. To make this feat even more useful, and to make Two Weapon Fighting more versitile, allow the user of the feat to give up all their off hand attacks, iterative or otherwise, and make a full attack, at the TWF penalties, with both weapons at once in each swing.

When attacking in this manner, you get 1.5 strength bonus to damage, and can power attack as if you wielded a 2 handed weapon. You can make one of these attacks as a standard action as well, for use with Spring Attack, and sneak attack will only apply once, because though technically you're using 2 weapons, it counts as 1 for rules purposes.

So, what it comes down to now is 2 weapon fighting gets a penalty to hit for versatility of attack style. It does require you to take 2 feats to equal a 2 handed weapon fighter, but they scale with you, and could probably both be taken by 6th level, depending on the requirements.

Anyone have any thoughts on this idea?

- Kemrain the Excited!

 

[RandomUsernamehmimo71]

I like Kemrain's suggestion.. While It wasn't the line of thought I had originally had (which would be to eliminate the 1:2 ratio for Power Attack, and give strength bonus to both hits, as someone suggested above), Kemrain's suggestion actually gives more variation..

TWF is still less Immediately powerful than one Greatsword, but you have a lot more variation.. You have more options available. Versitility is nice, at times. Combine that with Spring Attack later on, and you'd be home free..

Colin

 

[Storminator]

Easiest way I can think of to make TWF scale is to let you get an off hand attack at every iterative attack. Essentially giving you the other TWF feats free.

Then throw in the feat that started this all, and a TW Defense feat that grants double expertise bonus.

How long does it take for sword and board to be the worst fighting style possible?

PS

 

[I'm A Banana]

You know how Monks improve at unarmed attack rates? You know flurry of blows?

Flurry of blows is basically two-weapon fighting.

So make fighting with two weapons more like flurry of blows.

E.g: the weapons are interchangable in the attack, and that pesky -2 can be gotten rid of.

 

[Darklone]

I was suprised that the Two Weapon Defense feat grants only a 1 point Shield bonus, and doesn't impose the two weapon fightng penalty on the on-hand weapon's attacks. I'd have bumped it up to a +2, and kept the 2 weapon penalty ot the on-hand weapon's attack rolls, because you're still swinging the second weapon around, just not tryin's to whack the other guy with it.

Kemrain, I don't really understand you... right now TWD only gives you a shield armour bonus +1, there's no change in the TWF attacks. You get this shield bonus as soon as you wield two weapons, no matter if you only attack with one with your usual BAB iterative attacks or use TWF for additional offhand attacks.

 

[Kemrain]

I see. I'd confused this with another mechanic from a different feat. A case of thinking 'I've seen that before, I know how it works.' The other feat gave you a +2 shield bonus, at the cost of all your off-hand attacks that round, and you still attacked as if you were attacking with both weapons, penalties all around. But this is a static bonus for having somethign in your off-hand. A +1 is fair, and certanly worth a feat.

Thanks for the clarafication, and sorry for the confusion, Dark. That aside, what do you think of the Dual Strike feat I'm revisiting? Think that giving up two feats and some to-hit for a ton of versatility is worth it?

- Kemrain the Confused/ing?

 

[Darklone]

Yeah, the old Off-Hand Parry from Sword&Fist... bad feat.

As said, the Dual Strike feat sounds nice... but it's scarcely balanced in your average D&D game with sneak attack maxxed rogues. For everyone else it would be balanced