Turning favored class into a bonus, not a penalty
- Thread starter Asmor
- Start date
erf_beto
First Post
hmmm...Asmor said:
I want to say "yes", but since I'm playing "once in a blue moon", I don't think I'll be playtesting it very soon. :\ I have to say I like the idea of giving an extra use of an iconic class power, like smiting or rage... but I´m still worried about the "only one level to take the benefit".
Take rage, for instance. Its preety powerfull, and you only get to do it once until 4th level. Giving 2 rage uses to a 1st level half orc barbarian would be giving him the benefit of a 4th level barbarian.
Maybe you should do something like "paladins get an extra smite on 5th, 10th and 15th level" (ps: not sure how much this would affect power level! just a thought). The bonus is not on first level, so powergamers would not take 5 levels of a class just to get a somewhat minor bonus. If you still want players to get something at first level, start with extra skill points (2 should be enough) - preety generic, but it´s free candy.
ValhallaGH
Explorer
No, it's not.erf_beto said:
Every time my Barbarians have been killed it was while they were raging. If they hadn't been raging, and thus hadn't had a lower AC, then the killing blows wouldn't have landed and they would have survived. Those extra hp are less than the damage of one of the extra eight attacks my raging Barbarians usually take.
PHB Rage is a perfectly balanced ability. It lets you drop your foes more quickly at the price of dying more quickly. If the foe can't be killed with one attack spread then raging speeds up the barbarian's death rather than the foe's death.
I like the concept itself, but would personally keep the benefits small as to avoid causing old stereotypes to become the new 'true path' in your campaigns.
The Ranger gains undue versatility, meaning they're more effective in more combat situations than the old style. IIRC that means more attacks on the way into melee, and more attacks within melee thanks to their combat styles (unless you have alternate combat styles). Makes for very few times when a Ranger has to give up attacks.
For Monks it's a little harder to see right away, but when you add things like Enlarge (Improved Natural Attack, Powerful Build, or worse all three) into the picture damage can get out of control quickly. If they went Decisive Strike on top of that, you could see some incredible damage output on the tough monsters.
Rogues have always been two stat guys IMC. 8 puny skillpoints doesn't cut it when you've got over a couple dozen class skills. My current Rogue gets 11 skillpoints a level and I'm still at a loss for what to do.
The Druid's animal companion could simply be chosen from the next higher list at no penalty. But IIRC animal companion and wildshape are concumed by shifter abilities
The Ranger gains undue versatility, meaning they're more effective in more combat situations than the old style. IIRC that means more attacks on the way into melee, and more attacks within melee thanks to their combat styles (unless you have alternate combat styles). Makes for very few times when a Ranger has to give up attacks.
For Monks it's a little harder to see right away, but when you add things like Enlarge (Improved Natural Attack, Powerful Build, or worse all three) into the picture damage can get out of control quickly. If they went Decisive Strike on top of that, you could see some incredible damage output on the tough monsters.
Rogues have always been two stat guys IMC. 8 puny skillpoints doesn't cut it when you've got over a couple dozen class skills. My current Rogue gets 11 skillpoints a level and I'm still at a loss for what to do.
The Druid's animal companion could simply be chosen from the next higher list at no penalty. But IIRC animal companion and wildshape are concumed by shifter abilities
I agree that favored class needs to reward you for choosing your favored class, not reward you only when you don't choose your favored class (as the current system does). However, I do agree that the reward needs to be failry humble.
For instance, if Asmor's idea for the barbarian favored class reward (+1 rage per day) is too strong, what about just a bonus to the length of each individual rage? Perhaps +2 or +3 rounds? This approach also makes the reward more valuable throughout all barb levels (whereas the +1 rage per day is great a 1st level, but not that big of a deal at high levels when you can rage 4 or more times anyway).
For instance, if Asmor's idea for the barbarian favored class reward (+1 rage per day) is too strong, what about just a bonus to the length of each individual rage? Perhaps +2 or +3 rounds? This approach also makes the reward more valuable throughout all barb levels (whereas the +1 rage per day is great a 1st level, but not that big of a deal at high levels when you can rage 4 or more times anyway).
Asmor
First Post
Additional uses of rage don't make the barbarian more powerful at all. It just gives them more chances to do it throughout the day. Especially in the case of rage, where it's explicitly limited to once per encounter, it just means that the player is going to get to do the thing that makes his character cool in more encounters. If he could have chosen to rage in encounter A, or he could have chosen to rage in encounter B, but not can rage in both A and B, you haven't actually increased his potential power in either encounter.
I mean, I can certainly see your viewpoint that allowing him to rage in both encounters is kind of like allowing him to bypass a "penalty" of not being able to rage. I just don't think it's a huge deal.
So how about the following changes:
*Cleric: Additional turn/rebuke attempt each day.
Not really sure about this one... It fits the theme a lot better, but at the same time I think I really prefer my other one (adding wis to turning checks in addition to charisma). I like that it makes the checks more potent, rather than just letting you make more.
*Druid: When shapeshifted, the druid's natural armor improvement is increased by 50% or her wisdom modifier, whichever is lower. For example, a level 16 druid with 22 (+6) wisdom in ferocious slayer form has her natural armor improved by +12 rather than +8, while the same druid in elemental fury form would gain an improvement to natural armor of +22, rather than +16.
I've pretty much decided now that I'm going to make Shapeshift standard for druids in my campaign, and get rid of wild shape entirely.
*Monk: For all purposes EXCEPT base attack bonus and base saves, the character is treated as if his monk level were one higher. Note that this means the Flurry of Blows table will not be correct for your character, as you'll gain additional flurry of blow benefits sooner than you would normally. At 10th monk level, the monk is gains abilities of a monk two levels higher.
I don't think any of the monk abilities are especially unbalanced if you get them earlier. Unfortunately, stunning fist is a bonus feat which they can choose not to take, meaning I can't just give them an extra use of that or something.
*Ranger: Gain an additional favored enemy at 1st level. Both 1st level favored enemies start at +2, and increase as normal when you gain further favored enemies.
I like this because, frankly, I absolutely hate favored enemy, both as a player and as a DM. I don't like it as a player because I have no idea what the DM's going to run, and I don't like it as a DM because I'd feel like I'm screwing over my players if I don't run them against their favored enemies. At least with this option, they get more favored enemies, opening up more opportunities.
I mean, I can certainly see your viewpoint that allowing him to rage in both encounters is kind of like allowing him to bypass a "penalty" of not being able to rage. I just don't think it's a huge deal.
So how about the following changes:
*Cleric: Additional turn/rebuke attempt each day.
Not really sure about this one... It fits the theme a lot better, but at the same time I think I really prefer my other one (adding wis to turning checks in addition to charisma). I like that it makes the checks more potent, rather than just letting you make more.
*Druid: When shapeshifted, the druid's natural armor improvement is increased by 50% or her wisdom modifier, whichever is lower. For example, a level 16 druid with 22 (+6) wisdom in ferocious slayer form has her natural armor improved by +12 rather than +8, while the same druid in elemental fury form would gain an improvement to natural armor of +22, rather than +16.
I've pretty much decided now that I'm going to make Shapeshift standard for druids in my campaign, and get rid of wild shape entirely.
*Monk: For all purposes EXCEPT base attack bonus and base saves, the character is treated as if his monk level were one higher. Note that this means the Flurry of Blows table will not be correct for your character, as you'll gain additional flurry of blow benefits sooner than you would normally. At 10th monk level, the monk is gains abilities of a monk two levels higher.
I don't think any of the monk abilities are especially unbalanced if you get them earlier. Unfortunately, stunning fist is a bonus feat which they can choose not to take, meaning I can't just give them an extra use of that or something.
*Ranger: Gain an additional favored enemy at 1st level. Both 1st level favored enemies start at +2, and increase as normal when you gain further favored enemies.
I like this because, frankly, I absolutely hate favored enemy, both as a player and as a DM. I don't like it as a player because I have no idea what the DM's going to run, and I don't like it as a DM because I'd feel like I'm screwing over my players if I don't run them against their favored enemies. At least with this option, they get more favored enemies, opening up more opportunities.
Giltonio_Santos
Hero
I like the idea of giving players something for sticking into the favored classes of their races, but I'd keep the benefits small, to avoid power creep. Some quick ideas I'd use in my game:
- A +2 racial bonus in a given class skill.
- Some good feats available only to characters with levels in classes favored by their races.
- Small bonuses, like additional cantrips for elven wizards or an additional +1 against enemy races for dwarven fighters.
It's nice to point though, that the racial substitution levels seen in some books already offer great benefits for characters, if they choose to take classes favored by their races.
Cheers,
- A +2 racial bonus in a given class skill.
- Some good feats available only to characters with levels in classes favored by their races.
- Small bonuses, like additional cantrips for elven wizards or an additional +1 against enemy races for dwarven fighters.
It's nice to point though, that the racial substitution levels seen in some books already offer great benefits for characters, if they choose to take classes favored by their races.
Cheers,
In our game circle, we are fans of multiclassing. It allows the creation of character designs you cannot make with single classes without having to write entirely new base classes. With that said, we use the following basic house rules.
1) We change the multiclass level restriction to a 2 level leeway rather than the core 1.
Example: If a gnome multiclasses as a Fighter 3 / Sorcerer 1, they do not suffer a penalty. However, if they stretched it to Fighter 4 / Sorcerer 1, they would suffer the penalty.
2) Favored Class: This works as normal, allowing the favored class not to count toward multiclass penalties. Thus if the example above were a dwarf, they would suffer no penalty. However, what we do differently is that if the character remains single classed (not counting PrCs) matching their Favored Class, they gain a +10% XP bonus.
Now, I realize this doesn't quite jive with the OP's ideas. However, the system the OP presents, I would have to agree is unbalanced. If you do not use any multiclass penalties and want to make Favored Class a bonus, I would follow the old K.I.S.S. rule. I would simple say that Favored Class grants you a +10% XP bonus if your Favored Class is the highest level class in your multiclass combination (Not counting PrC's).
Example: Is above said dwarf is Fighter 4 / Sorcerer 1, they would receive a +10% XP bonus. However, if they were Fighter 2 / Sorcerer 3, they would not as they have focused more time and effort on sorcerer training than fghter training.
JMHO.
1) We change the multiclass level restriction to a 2 level leeway rather than the core 1.
Example: If a gnome multiclasses as a Fighter 3 / Sorcerer 1, they do not suffer a penalty. However, if they stretched it to Fighter 4 / Sorcerer 1, they would suffer the penalty.
2) Favored Class: This works as normal, allowing the favored class not to count toward multiclass penalties. Thus if the example above were a dwarf, they would suffer no penalty. However, what we do differently is that if the character remains single classed (not counting PrCs) matching their Favored Class, they gain a +10% XP bonus.
Now, I realize this doesn't quite jive with the OP's ideas. However, the system the OP presents, I would have to agree is unbalanced. If you do not use any multiclass penalties and want to make Favored Class a bonus, I would follow the old K.I.S.S. rule. I would simple say that Favored Class grants you a +10% XP bonus if your Favored Class is the highest level class in your multiclass combination (Not counting PrC's).
Example: Is above said dwarf is Fighter 4 / Sorcerer 1, they would receive a +10% XP bonus. However, if they were Fighter 2 / Sorcerer 3, they would not as they have focused more time and effort on sorcerer training than fghter training.
JMHO.
Phlebas
First Post
Like a lot of DM's I don't enforce favoured class rules, since I prefer multi-classing with base classes to give specialist characters (rather than buying books and using all new classes) so its a nice idea to turn it into a bonus rather than a penalty, but the concept doesn't work if you allow dipping .......
simplest is the +10% for favoured class levels - easy enough to calculate, not too unbalanced and since it just means levelling up quicker doesnt effect game balance (though if you level up quicker, & get less XP 'cos your higher would it cancel out?)
Substitution levels are a good idea, if you want to modify them, maybe tie it into your own campaigns setting (eg all 1/2 orc barbarians come from the northern mountains so get bonuses to climb, survival etc) and then its both bonus and flavour.
quick comment - bonuses that are a 'per day' basis are very dependant on the campaign and ref style. A leisurely city based campaign means often a few encounters cover the entire days activities. In a traditional dungeon bash then this can be much more critical as you have more encounters and opportunities to use (or choose not to use) abilities.
simplest is the +10% for favoured class levels - easy enough to calculate, not too unbalanced and since it just means levelling up quicker doesnt effect game balance (though if you level up quicker, & get less XP 'cos your higher would it cancel out?)
Substitution levels are a good idea, if you want to modify them, maybe tie it into your own campaigns setting (eg all 1/2 orc barbarians come from the northern mountains so get bonuses to climb, survival etc) and then its both bonus and flavour.
quick comment - bonuses that are a 'per day' basis are very dependant on the campaign and ref style. A leisurely city based campaign means often a few encounters cover the entire days activities. In a traditional dungeon bash then this can be much more critical as you have more encounters and opportunities to use (or choose not to use) abilities.
