Turning Undead is Counter-Productive

[Jürgen Hubert]

I despise clerics for thier willingness to submitt to an authority figure who would only protect his flock by granting a cruddy turning ability and a handfull of lame spells. Don't even get me started on the cleric's granted domain powers . . . .

The power of the gods may be limited. If that's the case, why shouldn't they ration out the most of their power to those who have been proven to use it well?

Besides, clerics have the power to bring the dead back to life! How is that "lame"?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Lame spells? Cleric spells are quite good. They don't get the flashy stuff, but They do get something from everything. They can not only destroy, but also heal.

They can reduce all but the most hardy warriors to a broken wreck with one spell. They can resurrect the dead. They can cure almost everything. They can protect from evil (or whatever they happen to be opposed to). And they can turn themselves into fighting machines that put warriors to shame.

Of course, you don't get all of this right away, but that's because an acolyte doesn't have the same "capacity" as a high priest.

The power of the spells granted to you doesn't depend on the deity, it depends on the caster. The more experience they have, the more conviction and dedication, the richer the divine rewards.



As for turning undead: It works well to obliterate hordes of soldier-type undead (low-level zombies and skeletons) without endangering anyone (sure, you could also torch them with a fireball, but then you'd have roasted townspoeple all over the place)

Against stronger creatures, it can also work, as it takes their ability to act freely. That way, even weaker defenders (like town guards) can attack them with impunity.

Clerics aren't divine artillery, and neither are they supposed to be divine artillery. They're champions, sure, but also protectors and defenders.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

All good points. Without a doubt, turning has it's tactical uses. I'm just saying that from an in-game perspective, it's a very dissapointing power.

"Every morning, Pelor, I pray to thee,
to grant me my pious right
to turn undead away from me,
but only those I could take out with hardly a fight."

 

[howandwhy99]

I've been thinking about this for awhile for my own game.
CR 1-6 Turning is always useful.
CR 7-12 Turning is useful about 50% of the time and very useful against lower CR creatures.
CR 13 and above creatures are Unique. Turning kicks any kind of common Undead's keister, but becomes less useful against Unique CR-appropriate creatures and I think the rules as designed are correct for this. The Turning HD maximum is a direct linear increase to class level. Creature's HD is exponential to their CR. The main factor here is: anything CR 13 and above must be portrayed as Unique and should probably have a number of minions appropriate to their power. Truly massive HD creatures are not easily Turned or Controlled by anyone, anyways. And it just makes sense that way.

On the flipside. HD Turned is 2d6+caster level. This is seriously low and as minions tend to pop up in bigger and badder numbers in higher and higher levels, I believe this is the factor needing adjustment.

What do folks think of: 2d6+1d6 / 2 levels - like Rogue's sneak attack ability? This at least takes care of the "HD needed to turn a single high level creature problem". It's gotta suck knowing you rolled high enough to Turn, but couldn't affect the highest creature because of the damage roll.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Clerics are maybe the best class, after druids. Having turn undead be less and less useful against peer undead the higher the cleric gets is fine for me. Besides, turning undead is not nearly as useless as the turn element-type granted power. At higher levels, IMO, huge HD undead shouldn't be easily defeated by waving a holy symbol.

The only thing about turning undead I would want to change is to make it less clunky.

 

[Wil]

I dunno, the ability to be able to turn into a vampire seems very productive.




What?

 

[takyris]

I'm enjoying turning undead in Neverwinter Nights -- I turn, and my wife the ranger whacks them as they cower while I go deal with the enemy boss. Everybody is happy.

And I got through Hordes of the Underdark with what ended up being a Cleric3/Bard24 -- with a Wisdom of 8. "Turn Undead" was this thing that existed to power my Divine Might and Divine Shield -- and given that I had a Charisma of 32, getting a +11 to AC and Damage for 11 rounds was... well, it was something special.

 

[Celebrim]

Turning is one of the more flavorful abilities in the game, and one of the most useful.

For example, a 4th level party facing a tough challenge from Shadows or Ghouls is in big trouble based on my experience as a DM - unless they have a cleric.

Undead have abilities that just tend to cascade, reducing the parties ability to resist as the combat goes on, resulting in routs or TPK's if they aren't controlled in a hurry. Many of them are incorporeal. Many of them have nasty special powers that make them very unpleasant in close quarters. Most are immune to common Save or Die spells. Most of them have some form of resistance to physical attacks, if only being resistant to criticals and sneak attacks. A party without a cleric often effectively increases the CR of undead by a point or two, and all because they don't have access to Turn Undead. Turn Undead either outright destroys undead, or else divides thier forces and renders them much less dangerous. The Sun domain's domain power is so powerful, that's its practically broken.

If you don't like turn undead, play a fighter. If you don't like having some of the most powerful spells in the game and you just want to blow things up, play an Evoker. But don't knock the cleric just because its not a fighter or an evoker. Until the 3.5 druid, cleric was (and maybe still is) the most powerful class in the game.

 

[Dracorat]

Turning is overpowered IMO. If I place a reasonable number of undead opponents and they are turned then resolving combat is a yawn fest.

If I place so many that the cleric HAS to turn and they roll poorly (trying to counter balance just how powerful this is) then we get dead party.

Personally, Ive considered changing turns to a one round stun. No roll for what level are affected - just use the cleric's level with appropriate bonuses -- just a roll to see how many HD are affected.

As a side note - turning undead does not disallow your party from running up and whacking undead down - it only disallows YOU from doing so. Thus, turning undead shouldn't turn combat into a potshot shootout.

 

[ruleslawyer]

I despise clerics for thier willingness to submitt to an authority figure who would only protect his flock by granting a cruddy turning ability and a handfull of lame spells. Don't even get me started on the cleric's granted domain powers . . . .

You mean an authority figure who grants them enough mojo to make them the second best class in the game (after the recipients of mojo from the nature gods, who I guess have the edge)?