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D&D 5E Tweak Instant Cure spells to fix whack-a-mole

CapnZapp

Legend
I still not seeing the major problem. I assume "whack a mole " means pcs go from 0 hp to positive with any heal spell is a major problem. So what that the pcs go from zeroes to heroes.
A) A 105hp barbarian is fighting a group of ogres who manage to reduce him to -2hp with a lucky swing. The Cleric throws a 5th level cure spell for 42 points. And at 13 hp damage a hit at least 4 ogres must hit bobby
B) A 16hp Bard is smacked by a Bugbear down to -11hp. The other Bard throws Healing Word for 3 points. And at 13 hp damage one ogre must hit Shakes HiSS Spear once to put him down again. Causing Roger Bacon to burn another healing word.

The problem is
C) The barbarian takes 90 points of damage.

Cleric casts 1st level Healing Word. Barbarian takes 90 points of damage.
Cleric casts 1st level Healing Word. Barbarian takes 90 points of damage.

Each time the barbarian refuses to stay down. Each time the cleric trivially fixes him. Damage ceases to mean anything.

But more damaging to the atmosphere in the gaming room...

D) Each time a monster downs a hero, its allies bend over backwards to attack the helpless hero while he or she is lying down. Every monster comes across as heartless and cruel, preferring to strike the defenseless to heroic combat against the heroes that still defy it.


That is the real problem. The way you "solve" whackamole by cranking up the deadliness to eleven.

No longer will an especially dastardly archenemy feel special because he goes out of his way to kill off fallen enemies. Now that's routine for everybody.

And all that because it's so hard to change an official design decision? No thank you.

Just try keeping track of hp down to -10 and most of the issues of whackamolin' go away, and no need to sour the gameplay experience with viciousness and cruelty :)
 

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jasper

Rotten DM
Or D. Oscar Ogre gets tired of Chucky Cleric healing, and smacks him for 13 pts damage. And I would not always crank the danger to 11.
 

nswanson27

First Post
The problem is
C) The barbarian takes 90 points of damage.

Cleric casts 1st level Healing Word. Barbarian takes 90 points of damage.
Cleric casts 1st level Healing Word. Barbarian takes 90 points of damage.

Each time the barbarian refuses to stay down. Each time the cleric trivially fixes him. Damage ceases to mean anything.

But more damaging to the atmosphere in the gaming room...

D) Each time a monster downs a hero, its allies bend over backwards to attack the helpless hero while he or she is lying down. Every monster comes across as heartless and cruel, preferring to strike the defenseless to heroic combat against the heroes that still defy it.


That is the real problem. The way you "solve" whackamole by cranking up the deadliness to eleven.

No longer will an especially dastardly archenemy feel special because he goes out of his way to kill off fallen enemies. Now that's routine for everybody.

And all that because it's so hard to change an official design decision? No thank you.

Just try keeping track of hp down to -10 and most of the issues of whackamolin' go away, and no need to sour the gameplay experience with viciousness and cruelty :)

It depends on the initiative order. If enemy goes between cleric and barbarian, all barbarian is doing is going up and down, not attacking.
Also this scenario assumes the enemy has one single, big attack, and no minions (who could now down the barbarian as well with a single hit). For most combats, especially tier 2+ where everything has multiattack, damage is muted a little, but I wouldn't say it doesn't mean anything.
Another thing to think about is the strength of healing to begin with (at level 1) vs. other level 1 damaging spells. Pound for pound, healing is underpowered to begin with. Not allowing whack-a-mole makes level 1 heals something you'd almost never want to do in combat. Better off just attacking fast and hard to stop them from dealing damage later.
 
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nswanson27

First Post
You know, another suggestion would be to return the favor to the PC's. Houserule that all enemies get death saving throws as well (or at least don't die until like 3 turns later if you don't want all the bookkeeping). Next, have an enemy cleric in every group. Presto. Don't get mad, get even.
 
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Satyrn

First Post
This stems from the desire to have the most efficient use of action possible, no matter what. In games I run (which tend to have less experienced players) getting hit for that initial 40 damage causes panic. The healer is being begged to heal the character, the damage dealers start seeing if they have any tricks left, the thought of retreat might even possibly enter their mind.

The idea of not healing, so that later healing could be done at less value for less wasted resource does not enter into their equation.


Now then, looking back at the OP's proposed solution. What is the most efficient use of the Healer's action if they want to still be combat capable and do the least amount of healing necessary?

They don't heal.
Playing my war cleric with 3rd level spells - and the default rules - I told the rest of the party exactly that. But I assured them that I'll keep a slot open for revivify as a backup.

We also have a paladin and bard, anyway. And the monk can heal himself, so my position isn't really bad.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
This will bring you back up from unconscious, with a few hit points. Effectively 35 of those 40 incoming damage points are simply gone. And the best part is - the next time the monster hits you, 35 of those 40 damage points are negated once again.

Each time you the Cleric
1) save movement
2) save spell slots
3) save time (since you only spend your bonus action, you can use your regular action for offense, to help defeat the monsters)
A good articulation of the extreme case.

Of course, there are cases that'll be less extreme, where many enemies, or enemies with multi-attack, are chipping away at you with little bits of damage, so waste less when they drop you, and instead move on and drop someone else with their remaining attacks.

To talk around to my point, the major issue does not seem to be the heal-from-zero then.

This stems from the desire to have the most efficient use of action possible, no matter what.
From 'smart play,' yeah, FWIW. The caster has a number of reasons to not heal allies & to heal them with the lowest-level slot practical, and heal-from-0 just adds another big one, 'efficiency.' When it's already in the caster's interest to hold off on healing so he can take another action, or heal with a lower-level slot so he can reserve the higher level slot for more personal-glory uses, being able to analyze the options and determine that the self-interested choice is also the 'more efficient' (and thus better for everyone but the guy getting dropped each round) one, well, it becomes a cinch.

Now then, looking back at the OP's proposed solution. What is the most efficient use of the Healer's action if they want to still be combat capable and do the least amount of healing necessary?

They don't heal.
Prettymuch, it 'balances' the efficiency of heal-from-0 by punishing it, rather than just removing the efficiency. The same is true of imposing exhaustion.

OTOH, counting negative hps can also lead to problems. If you only go to -10, for instance, and then die, high-level games will see almost as much instant death as 1st level ones, because damage scales pretty dramatically in 5e. If you go to high negatives, like -max, then when someone gets deeply beaten down, not healing them at all, again, becomes the best option (let them wake up and spend HD later).

Another option, though a complex one, would be to count negatives up to some limit, but not have PCs simply die at that limit. So you track to -10 or -(10+level) or whatever makes sense given the psychology of the healers at your table, but still only die if hit for -max. Waiting for allies to drop is no longer hands-down most-efficient (and thus no longer as good an excuse to use your slots & actions for yourself).

Another thought: a minimum slot cost to healing a dropped ally. Any cure or heal spell can work on a conscious ally, but if he's at 0, it must be at least a 2nd level slot, plus another for each failed save. That'd make it more in the casters' interest to heal before allies drop, I suppose.

Another 'nother thought: Change healing word to let the target spend HD, in addition to the hps restored by the spell - /if he's already conscious/. That'd make it more efficient from the caster's point of view, and more effective from the target's. Could be combined with some of the other ideas.

Edit: Sorry, another, other, 'nother thought: It's probably clear from the above, but part of the problem is also that casters use slots to heal, and slots have lots of other very powerful, useful to the party, and spotlight-grabbing spells they could be used for. If you had more HD, and ways to use them in combat, to the point that the party could more or less depend on them, you'd eliminate much of the need for devoting slots to healing in the first place, and heal from 0 would be less important (it'd still have anyone able to trigger HD for another 'playing chicken' in the name of efficiency, but it wouldn't be as pernicious). Of course, the casters with healing on their list would 'need' fewer slots, since the game clearly must assume some routinely get devoted to healing...
 
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You know, another suggestion would be to return the favor to the PC's. Houserule that all enemies get death saving throws as well (or at least don't die until like 3 turns later if you don't want all the bookkeeping). Next, have an enemy cleric in every group. Presto. Don't get mad, get even.
That's not a house rule. It's not even an interpretation. That's just an option for the DM to invoke based on personal preference (kind of like the option for how to describe damage).

The book says that most DMs just have monsters die when they hit zero, which is obviously to save time on a bunch of extra dice-rolling that is unlikely to matter. If the enemies have a cleric, though, then suddenly it is likely to matter, so the DM should track death saves.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Each time the barbarian refuses to stay down. Each time the cleric trivially fixes him. Damage ceases to mean anything.

But more damaging to the atmosphere in the gaming room...


See, this I disagree with. It’s the writer in me, I know it, but if you can’t make the situation where the barbarian is down then up then down epic, then either the group wants it to be funny, or they aren’t trying hard enough.

I had hoped to find good videos to illustrate my point, but Youtube has failed me in this. Best I could do is
This : https://youtu.be/ncSpMOi8n3M?t=55s
Vs
This: https://youtu.be/ikULgt0_wVg?t=2m21s

But the point is that the biggest difference between the two is tone.

Instead of “The Barbarian stands up again to fight, yay” “And now he’s down again, round 6”

Give them some action “Greg, you stand up again, leaving behind a bloody smear on the ground. The words of your friend giving strength to your limbs.” “The Ogre’s club impacts your back again, you feel your bones creak as you are driven back into the dirt. Your vision swims as the ogre goes to move on, his club slick with your blood”

It switches from “whack-a-mole” to “WHY! WON’T! YOU! DIE!” which can easily keep the same mood at most of the tables I’ve sat at. Everyone loves the guy who won’t stay down, no matter what.
 

bedir than

Full Moon Storyteller
The more I think about this the more I like death save failures adding a level of exhaustion. That would be a really gritty campaign.

It would hurt the Barbarian more than anyone else though. So there may need to be a small tweak in how to remove an exhaustion level.
 

Psikerlord#

Explorer
Now then, looking back at the OP's proposed solution. What is the most efficient use of the Healer's action if they want to still be combat capable and do the least amount of healing necessary?

They don't heal.
For me, this is would preferable to whack-a-mole, but if the party is not willing to heal people as they approach zero, that means to me the penalty for dropping to zero is not hefty enough - it's not dangerous enough.

But that's another issue (for me, the answer is an Injuries & Setbacks table, and chance of death - but not nearly so generous as the 5e default 3 saves method)
 

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