Tweaking the Skill System back to 3.5

[Windjammer]

Hi everyone,

It's been my experience with Skill Challenges that I'd like my players to have more of a variety of skills at their disposal. Like, you know, when we had 3rd edition. Now I totally understand that you may well not share this concern or desire. But on the supposition that you did (or do) share it, could you please help me with working out this proposal?

My basic premises are as follows.
1. Familiarity. I'm gaming with 3rd Edition gamers more often than complete D&D newcomers or old schoolers. So familiarity with 3rd edition helps a great deal. For instance, I'd like to keep old names for skills to trade on that familiarity. That's a reason why I'd stick with "Sense Motive" (for Insight) and "Gather Information" (for Streetwise). Also, I'd like to prefix "Knowledge" to skills which are knowledge-oriented (such as Arcana and History). The main point is not that these names are objectively better - it's just a point about 3rd edition familiarity.

2. Diversity. I love playing rogues. So I totally hate the idea that all I do at the table revolves around a single skill - Thievery. Also, regardless of whether I play rogues or bards, I'd like to have a variety of skills which revolve around the basic idea of getting your way around NPCs. "Bluff" covers too much ground of that for my likes. Finally, I am happy to leave out 3.5 skills whose mechanical rationale is largely gone in 4E - I consider "Concentration" to be an instance of this.

Again, you need not share these premises. My hope is rather that I can come up with something that fits these premises, and I hope to attract constructive criticism from you.

Ok, with preliminaries out of the way, here's my first draft. COMMENTS WELCOME!!!

1) List of Skills

Acrobatics (DEX)
Appraise (INT)
Athletics (STR)
Bluff (CHA)
Craft (INT)
Disable device (INT)
Diplomacy (WIS)
Disguise (CHA)
Forgery (INT)
Gather Information (WIS)
Heal (WIS)
Hide/Move Silently (Dex)
Intimidate (CHA)
Knowledge (Arcana)
Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
Knowledge (Religion)
Knowledge (Nature)
Open lock (DEX)
Perform (CHA)
Perception (WIS)
Sense Motive (WIS)
Sleight of Hand (DEX)
Survival (WIS)

2) Skill Descriptions and 3.5 Convertions

Acrobatics (DEX) and Athletics (STR)
...cover physical skills exhaustively and in an intuitive manner. They subsume all Dex- and Str-based 3.5 physical skills respectively, these being Balance (dex), Ride (dex), Escape artist (dex), Tumble (dex), Use Rope (dex) on the one hand, and Climb (str), Jump (str), Swim (str) on the other.

Appraise (INT) and Sense Motive (WIS)
...replace "Insight". A character is trained in Appraise and Sense Motive if and only if he is trained in Insight. Alternatively, provided a character is trained in Insight his player may distribute a net total of +10 among Appraise and Sense Motive (using at least 2 points but not more than 8 on each). (This simulates 3.5 skill ranks.)

Bluff (CHA)
...has remained in name, but its function is narrowed down to 3.5 standards. Disguise and Forgery are back as entries in their own right. A character has them trained if and only if he has Bluff trained. Alternatively, provided a character is trained in Bluff his player may distribute a net total of +15 among Bluff, Disguise, and Forgery (using at least 2 points but not more than 8 on each). (This simulates 3.5 skill ranks.)


Craft (INT)
This entry is new. A character has it trained if (he can convince his DM that) this makes sense according to his character background.

Disable device (int), Open lock (DEX), and Sleight of Hand (DEX)
...replace the umbrella skill "Thievery". Their names are pretty self explanatory. A character has them trained if and only if he has Thievery trained. Alternatively, provided a character is trained in Thievery his player may distribute a net total of +15 among Disable device , Open lock, and Sleight of Hand (using at least 2 points but not more than 8 on each).


Diplomacy (WIS) remains unchanged
Heal (WIS) remains unchanged
Disguise (CHA) see Bluff.
Forgery (INT) see Bluff.

Gather Information (WIS)
...is Streetwise by another name. A character has Gather Information trained if and only if he has Streetwise named.

Heal (WIS) remains unchanged.

Hide/Move Silently (Dex)
...is Stealth by another name. A character has Hide/Move Silently trained if and only if he has Stealth named.

Intimidate (CHA) remains unchanged.

Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (Nature)
...are Arcana, Dungeoneering, Religion, Nature by other names and function identical to them.

Perform (CHA)
This entry is new. A character has it trained if (he can convince his DM that) this makes sense according to his character background.

Perception (WIS) remains unchanged. It covers Listen and Search checks in 3.5. For Spot checks apply Passive Perception.

Sense Motive (WIS) see Appraise.

Survival (WIS)
...replaces Endurance. A character has it trained if and only if he has Endurance trained. Where Survival is not synonymous to Endurance, call for CON-checks.


NB. I use the nonidiomatic locution "a character has skill x trained" as shorthand for "a character is trained in skill x and gets the concomitant +5 bonus on checks involving skill x."

NB 2. I will keep editing this post to integrate your feedback.

 

[Dragonbait]

Personally, I would love to have seen a few more skills on the player's side. Crafting and the like.

A note about Sense Motive - Insight covers Sense Motive AND Appraise. You might want to change the name back to Insight since you have no Appraise skill.

Were you intending to keep skill points? Or just trained/untrained? You could have a class give +5 skill ranks per skill that they gain, and skill training feat (if that's what the name was) grants another +5 skill points. Maximum of 5 ranks in a skill. Class skills are those listed as skill choices in the book, cross-class are not on the skill list. Add 1/2 level as normal, along with ability score bonuses, and the new version of skill focus remains the same.

 

[Windjammer]

Thanks, Appraise slipped my mind. It's a typical case of what I want to keep: basically Insight covers two 3.5 skills which are based on different abilities - here: Wisdom (for Sense Insight) and Intelligence (for Appraise). I'll edit my post in light of this!

I'm not in favour of introducing skill ranks across the board, except in places marked with the "Alternatively, ..." entry (see e.g. on Thievery above).

 

[The Little Raven]

Some of your changes don't make a whole lot of sense.

Survival - Why is this an Intelligence-based skill, when it subsumes the function of a personal Constitution-based skill (and it was a Wisdom-based skill in previous editions)? Since Nature and Perception cover the other aspects of the old Survival (knowledge of the wilderness and tracking), I don't see any point in changing Endurance at all.

Hide/Move Silently - So, it's just a name change? What's the point of giving it a longer, more awkward name when Stealth works just fine?

Sense Motive - Just another name change? Why?

And your breaking some skills up into multiple skills doesn't seem balanced. Disguise and Forgery are both incredibly narrowly focused, while Perception is much more broadly useful, yet they all incur the same resource cost to attain.

 

[Windjammer]

Thanks, you caught me there with Survival. That was a factual error. As for your other comments, I direct you to premise "1) Familiarity" above. As I said, I'm not interested in debating that premise, I'm only interested in debating ways to accomodate it. And that's not out of dogmatism - I think I actually stated that I can perfectly understand people not sharing those premises.

 

[Windjammer]

And your breaking some skills up into multiple skills doesn't seem balanced. Disguise and Forgery are both incredibly narrowly focused, while Perception is much more broadly useful, yet they all incur the same resource cost to attain.

The net total of skill bonuses is calculated on the basis of extant skills and the PHB's say on which skills are trained for which class. The fact that being trained in Bluff (the 4E skill) gives you a net bonus of +15 on three rare skills is balanced against a +5 in a skill where checks are far more frequent.

 

[El Mahdi]

I run a houseruled 3.5E game (not 4E). I like the idea of skill challenges and plan on using the concept in my game, at least to a certain extent. However, I definitely prefer the 3E(3.5E) skills list better. I guess it's just the simulationist in me, but I don't like combining physical skills. I understand how it makes game play a little easier, but I just can't wrap my mind around the reality disconnect. However, I use the SAGA concept for Skill levels rather than the typical 3E skill point allocation.

Just because one has a high dexterity, that doesn't mean that they are automatically a world class athlete. Being good at running or jumping, does not make you good at a balance beam or uneven bars (acrobatics), and that's what combining skills into Athletics kind of implies (at least to my simulationist brain).

If I was playing 4E, I'd definitely be upset at the absence of Craft and all of the other such skills. That was one of my favorite parts of 2E (non-weapon proficiencies) that I expanded my 3E lists to include (navigation, seamanship, etc.).