TWF penalties and AOOs

[Ranger REG]

So when do you consider someone is fighting with both weapons?

Technically, when he is making an attack (or two) with both weapons on his turn, which incurs the TWF penalties to the attacks.

During AoO, you can only make one single melee attack. Period. So you can't bring your off-hand weapon to attack, so why incur the penalty to his primary weapon attack (or whichever weapon you choose to make that one single melee attack)?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Technically, when he is making an attack (or two) with both weapons on his turn, which incurs the TWF penalties to the attacks.

During AoO, you can only make one single melee attack. Period. So you can't bring your off-hand weapon to attack, so why incur the penalty to his primary weapon attack (or whichever weapon you choose to make that one single melee attack)?

Because he's wielding a second weapon in his off-hand (not just holding it, obviously, if he's used it to attack that round), and is therefore (depending on intepretation) "fighting this way", which is what imposes TWF penalties.

-Hyp.

 

[Ottergame]

Because he's wielding a second weapon in his off-hand (not just holding it, obviously, if he's used it to attack that round), and is therefore (depending on intepretation) "fighting this way", which is what imposes TWF penalties.

-Hyp.

I still say that a character making an AoO is fighting with one weapon, no matter how many he's holding.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I still say that a character making an AoO is fighting with one weapon, no matter how many he's holding.

How is it different to when I make a full attack action?

When I make my first attack roll, I'm fighting with one weapon.

When I make my second attack roll, I'm fighting with one weapon - it's just the other one weapon.

-Hyp.

 

[Ottergame]

But you are fighting with more than one weapon in a single action, in an AoO you are not.

 

[Ranger REG]

But are you also making an attack with the other weapon during an AoO? If you're making an attack with one weapon and no attack with the other weapon, then no TWF penalties incur.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But you are fighting with more than one weapon in a single action, in an AoO you are not.

Why is "single action" of greater significance than "single round"?

"If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way."

The sentence that "fight this way" refers to talks about attacks in a round, not attacks in a single action.

So if the AoO occurs in the same round as your extra attack with your second weapon, are you not still "fighting this way", even if you interpret "fight this way" to mean "get one extra attack per round"?

-Hyp.

 

[Ranger REG]

Why is "single action" of greater significance than "single round"?

Because it is not. AoO is only a single melee attack. You can have as many AoO's but each of them is still a single melee attack.

"If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way."

The sentence that "fight this way" refers to talks about attacks in a round, not attacks in a single action.

So if the AoO occurs in the same round as your extra attack with your second weapon, are you not still "fighting this way", even if you interpret "fight this way" to mean "get one extra attack per round"?

Nope. Why penalize that single attack when you're not making an additional attack with your off-hand weapon during an AoO? Why penalize when there is no ongoing benefit (like Combat Expertise; you benefit from AC bonus in exchange for reduced attack bonus) nor did it state that the penalty lasts for a whole round until your next turn.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Why penalize that single attack when you're not making an additional attack with your off-hand weapon during an AoO? Why penalize when there is no ongoing benefit (like Combat Expertise; you benefit from AC bonus in exchange for reduced attack bonus) nor did it state that the penalty lasts for a whole round until your next turn.

Because you're making the AoO when you gained an "extra attack per round", during that round.

"Fighting this way" is specifically linked to a round, not just to a given full attack action. So, in a given round, if I gain an extra attack with my off-hand weapon, I am "fighting this way". Whether it's within my regular action or not, it's still in the same round.

An ongoing benefit isn't required - charging grants a single attack bonus in exchange for a persistent AC penalty, for example.

-Hyp.

 

[Elvinis75]

How is it different to when I make a full attack action?

When I make my first attack roll, I'm fighting with one weapon.

When I make my second attack roll, I'm fighting with one weapon - it's just the other one weapon.

-Hyp.

It seems clear to me that you are missing that you have to declare that you are weilding both before any attack action as it changes the bonus that you use to make that first attack. Take the skillless person that uses two weapons at a -6 and -10 to hit with the primary and secondary. Before any attack action that would allow him/her to swing both the style of attack must be declared. You can’t attack with you primary weapon at a single weapon style and then change your style in the middle. During the AOO he/she cannot “fight this way“ as you cannot make a full attack. Period! This seems very clear. IMHO