Two 10th level Spell Slots at 20th level???

[howandwhy99]

Is the Wizard missing two spell slots for 10th level spells at 20th level? I mean, if I were to assume spell levels just kept going up, would these overpower spellcasting classes? 19-20th levels seem to have no other benefit given to Wizards, Sorcerers, or Clerics.

I understand spellcasters are comparatively powerful regardless at high levels, but is the acceleration intentionally slowed or is there some ignored room for 10th level spells? I'd rather not have to rely on an epic-level system or "cap" the core rule progression at 20th, if possible. I don't foresee going more than a level or two above 20th, but 10th (and 11th) level spells seem necessary if I just expand the system without capping.

 

[comrade raoul]

Very experience casters do just fine. More slots of your best spells can make a big difference, and the higher caster levels can also be very helpful.

This is also one reason why the archmage and the hierophant exist--if you don't like having more high-level spells, you can trade some of them in for nice benefits.

 

[Particle_Man]

This is one case where the highest level psion/wilder gets a benefit, since a lot of their powers have "Augments" that can augment well for a 19th or 20th level psion (although, sadly, Astral Construct X does not officially exist for the benefit of the augmented power Create Astral Construct). This, *in effect* can give one a 10th level power.

The Elements of Magic Revised is a spell-point system that directly ties maximum spell power to level.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

If you allow for stuff above 20 class levels and 9 spell levels, you either have to use Epic rules or make your own rules. Make them for all classes, not just for wizards.

 

[Nyeshet]

In 2e I believe that they had 10th level spells, 11th level, etc (at least in Faerun), but that was dropped in favor of the epic system in the latter years of 3e (about a year or so before 3.5e came out). I don't know if 19th level wizards gain 10th level spells or not, however. Could someone with 2e AD&D experience in the Forgotten Realms please come forward and clarify?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

In 2e I believe that they had 10th level spells, 11th level, etc (at least in Faerun), but that was dropped in favor of the epic system in the latter years of 3e (about a year or so before 3.5e came out).

Once upon a time, there were twelve levels of magic. Level 10 and 11 were the truly awesome things like "cut off a mountaintop, turn it around to build a city on it and let it float." Then Karsus - one of the most powerful wizards ever to be - created a spell called Karsus' Avatar, the only 12th-level spell ever created. It is said that it took a year only to create the material components for it.

This spell would shove a deity of your choice from his or her throne and put you on it. Karsus cast the spell and supplanted Mystryl - the goddess of magic - with it. And immediately saw his error, for he was unable to hold the Weave together. It began to unravel, with disastrous effects for magic. Mystryl sacrificed herself to save the Weave, and for a while, all magic ceased to work in the Realms (remember those flying cities? That day marked the downfall of Netheril - literally).

She was then reborn as Mystra, the new goddess of magic, and her very first action was to eradicate magic of level 10+ from existance. Since then, the only way of going beyond 9th is epic magic.


This was changed long before 3e came (though the epic spell part is new, obviously).

 

[Ciaran]

If you allow for stuff above 20 class levels and 9 spell levels, you either have to use Epic rules or make your own rules. Make them for all classes, not just for wizards.

You don't need to have 10th level spells in your campaign for 10th level spell slots to be useful. Just use them for metamagic!

 

[Bad Paper]

Once upon a time, there were twelve levels of magic. Level 10 and 11 were the truly awesome things like "cut off a mountaintop, turn it around to build a city on it and let it float." Then Karsus - one of the most powerful wizards ever to be - created a spell called Karsus' Avatar, the only 12th-level spell ever created. It is said that it took a year only to create the material components for it.

This spell would shove a deity of your choice from his or her throne and put you on it. Karsus cast the spell and supplanted Mystryl - the goddess of magic - with it. And immediately saw his error, for he was unable to hold the Weave together. It began to unravel, with disastrous effects for magic. Mystryl sacrificed herself to save the Weave, and for a while, all magic ceased to work in the Realms (remember those flying cities? That day marked the downfall of Netheril - literally).

She was then reborn as Mystra, the new goddess of magic, and her very first action was to eradicate magic of level 10+ from existance. Since then, the only way of going beyond 9th is epic magic.

wow. really? And I didn't expect to learn anything today.

 

[Nyeshet]

Persoanlly, I see epic as the same as 10th+ level spells - just more defined. As such, I don't see why epic should be allowed in Faerun if the 10th+ level spells are not allowed. You can, in fact, re-create all those spells - with not that difficult to achieve DCs and costs - in the epic system. I've seen some examples a while back on the WotC boards. So why allow epic in Faerun if you do not allow 10th+ level spells.

One view to take - for this thread, not for FR - is that no 10th+ level spells are known. Use what is known of current spell progression (damage progression for evocation spells, for instance, as well as what the effect of metamagic upon a lower level spell would achieve at 10th level) and state that the PCs have the slots but there are no spells to learn for them unless they use meta-magic or expend the cost of creating the spells themselves. Thus they truly become living legends - the Creators of 10th level Magic! You could, as DM, create a few such spells yourself and set up high level quests to be searchs for just a single spell of this level - a single rare remnant of a truly phenomenal prior Age.

 

[howandwhy99]

This is one case where the highest level psion/wilder gets a benefit, since a lot of their powers have "Augments" that can augment well for a 19th or 20th level psion (although, sadly, Astral Construct X does not officially exist for the benefit of the augmented power Create Astral Construct). This, *in effect* can give one a 10th level power.

The Elements of Magic Revised is a spell-point system that directly ties maximum spell power to level.

I admit RW's Revised version of EoM is a damn fine spell point system. I just don't agree with using them hand-in-hand with the standard Level-based one. That goes double for Psionics.

This is one of the big reasons I'd like to ditch the RAW Epic rules.

If you allow for stuff above 20 class levels and 9 spell levels, you either have to use Epic rules or make your own rules. Make them for all classes, not just for wizards.

That's what I would do. As we are mostly core in every respect, I don't think that would be too difficult. It's the caster question that I'm wondering about. Most every other class keeps advancing and Prestige classes are likely to be only partially complete by then anyways.

You don't need to have 10th level spells in your campaign for 10th level spell slots to be useful. Just use them for metamagic!

This was my first thought too, but I allow for Player created Spells. I think it's one of the biggest parts of the game.

And really. If you're going to allow 10th level spells, why wouldn't you want the sheer enjoyment of dreaming up NEW SPELLS? (now that all the "lid is off" wish and miracle-like spells have been capped)