two disarm questions

[Dingleberry]

If a disarm attempt with a reach weapon fails, does a target without a reach weapon get to attempt the counter-disarm?

If a creature using a natural weapon attempts to disarm an opponent and fails, what happens?

Situation: a character in the game I DM has a whip that is effectively a part of his arm, and is treated as a natural weapon. He tried to disarm an opponent with a sword from 10 feet away and lost the opposed roll. (I know that a whip is not a reach weapon, but since it can be used to disarm, that seems like the closest analog.) I ruled that rather than getting a counter-disarm attempt, the opponent would get a counter-trip attempt, since the whip couldn't be disarmed. Thoughts?

 

[AGGEMAM]

If a disarm attempt with a reach weapon fails, does a target without a reach weapon get to attempt the counter-disarm?

Yes.

If a creature using a natural weapon attempts to disarm an opponent and fails, what happens?

Nothing.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If a disarm attempt with a reach weapon fails, does a target without a reach weapon get to attempt the counter-disarm?

Hmm - that's a more complicated question than the AoO one.

My inclination is to say no - you don't threaten, you can't disarm, since a disarm is effectively a melee attack against an opponent.

I don't believe there is a counter-disarm attempt against a disarm with a natural weapon.

-Hyp.

 

[Dingleberry]

Any other takers? (bump)

 

[Wikidogre]

Any other takers? (bump)

As for the first....

No thats the advantage of having a weapon with reach on someone.

secondly...
Someone using a natural weapon... i.e. a monk will only suffer an AoO, there is know way to disarm someones hand, unless you are using home-brew or Mongooses or even Bastion presses critical hits and calledshots rules.

 

[Magic Slim]

(various comments that will maybe lead to an illumination)

1) The counter-disarm must be made with the weapon on which the original disarm attempt was made.

2) A monk (for example) wouldn't be able to disarm the guy with the longspear unless they were side by side, which would mean that the monk can't grap the longspear by the shaft and rip it out of the spearman's hands, which is, IMO, kind of silly.

2b) A wizard armed with a dagger (for example) wouldn't be able to disarm the guy with the longspear unless they were side by side. Makes sense.

3) A monk (for example) wouldn't be able to disarm the guy with the spiked chain unless they were side by side, which would mean that the monk can't grap the chain andyank it out of the munchkin's hands, which is, IMO, normal, since the spiked chain doesn't necessarily reach 10' all the time.

4) There is no description of what happens exaclty when a disarm attempt is made.

*waits a bit*

(no illumination whatsoever)

Slim

 

[Kemrain]

Though not supported in the rules, I'm for the counter-trip idea. If you wrap a whip, which you have grafted to your body, around my weapon, and can't pull my weapon from my hand, I'm in a pretty good position to drag you around by said whip. Not in the rules, but it makes sense and makes combat interesting. You get my vote.

- Kemrain the Tripper

(Hope the clolor in this post doesn't look as messed up as it does on this monitor..)

 

[melkoriii]

For the first part.

From my understanding you get to disarm the reach opponent.

This is easly seen when you think of a spearmen attacking someones longsword and failing to disamr/sunder/trip them and the Longsword wielder hits the spear right out of there hands.

 

[Zaruthustran]

For the first part.

From my understanding you get to disarm the reach opponent.

This is easly seen when you think of a spearmen attacking someones longsword and failing to disamr/sunder/trip them and the Longsword wielder hits the spear right out of there hands.

What's more, the rules support this. There's nothing in the counter-disarm rules that say that you have to threaten the wielder on the counter.

SRD:
"If you fail on the disarm attempt, the defender may immediately react and attempt to disarm you with the same sort of opposed melee attack roll. "

This does not say "the defender may immediately make a disarm attack against you."

Instead of the defender making his own disarm attack, you just go back to Step 2 of the disarm rules:
"Step 2: Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a disarm attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a –4 penalty. (An unarmed strike is considered a light weapon, so you always take a penalty when trying to disarm an opponent by using an unarmed strike.) If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category. If the targeted item isn’t a melee weapon, the defender takes a –4 penalty on the roll."

Nothing in step 2 says you have to threaten your opponent. And the counterer is not making an attack or even an attack of opportunity; he's just repeating the opposed roll. The counter is part of the original attacker's action.

-z

 

[Hypersmurf]

There's nothing in the counter-disarm rules that say that you have to threaten the wielder on the counter.

That's why I said it's more complicated than the AoO question

-Hyp.