Two-Handed Weapons and 1.5 x STR Mod...Too Much?

[Caliban]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but even if a fighter has no wizard levels he can duplicate the Shield and Haste effects with potions, right? In the last campaign I played my Barbarian often began by drinking a 50 gp Shield potion.

I'm not sure shields offset the power of 2-handed weapon fighting. With things like Animated Shields, Bucklers, and "miss chance" items such as the Ring of Blinking and Cloak of Displacement, a 2HW fighter won't miss a free shield hand.

Shield potions are not allowed in any game I currently play in, and not in any game I run. Eventually I may get my shield animated, but my dwarf currently only has a 14 Str, so it's not really worth it. (Maybe after I get a belt of Giant Strength.)

I had to sacrifice strength to get my other stats high enough to qualify for the Dodge and Expertise feats. That, and to keep my Con high.

 

[hammymchamham]

Re: Re: Re: Smaller weapons

A short sword is not a slashing weapon.

-Hyp.

Yes, yes it is. But you don't need a slashing weapon to cut your way out of, say, a Purple Worm. you need a slashing or piercing weapon.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Smaller weapons

Yes, yes it is. But you don't need a slashing weapon to cut your way out of, say, a Purple Worm. you need a slashing or piercing weapon.

Ah. Errata.

My apologies - my Monster Manual and SRD were misleading me.

Why did they change that? It made more sense before... it's so much easier to cut meat with a cleaver than with an awl...

-Hyp.

 

[hammymchamham]

they changed it because the number of slashing weapons are:

Simple
Tiny 0
Small 1 (Sickle)

Martial
Tiny 0
Small 2 (Throwing Axe and Handaxe)

Exotic
Tiny 2 (Kama, halfling and Kukri)
Small 1 (Kama)


which leaves us with 6 total weapons, and if the PC's don't have one of those 6 and are swallowed, they can't cut themselves out. And if they are small, they have 2 possible weapons that if they don't have.....

Now even with a dagger a PC can get out

 

[Hypersmurf]

they changed it because the number of slashing weapons are 6 total weapons, and if the PC's don't have one of those 6 and are swallowed, they can't cut themselves out.

Good reason for everyone to carry a handaxe...

It's part of my 'standard adventurer's kit'; mostly for mundane camp tasks like chopping firewood etc. Even characters who aren't proficient with martial weapons pick one up along with their bedroll and waterskin.

And if they are small, they have 2 possible weapons that if they don't have.....

Well, yeah Sucks to be small...

As a DM, though, I'd be happy to make tiny 1d4 hatchets available for Small characters.

Now even with a dagger a PC can get out

... which somehow bothers me. I didn't see that as a problem rule before they fixed it

Ah well.

-Hyp.

 

[Elric]

At low levels, a character with a two-handed weapon does 1.5 times as much damage as a character with a one-handed weapon and shield. 4.5 for longsword vs. 7 for greatsword and Str bonus vs. 1.5 Str bonus. If two fighters are facing each other, the greatsword fighter has the advantage unless his chance to hit the shielded longsword fighter is 20% or less (to 30% for his opponent). Usually, the greatsword fighter wins.

At higher levels the calculations are more complicated, but as Caliban notes, many non-humanoid enemies have so many hit dice and such high Strength scores that you have to take extreme measures to avoid being hit all the time. In this case, you might as well just maximize your damage.

 

[LokiDR]

Good reason for everyone to carry a handaxe...

...

... which somehow bothers me. I didn't see that as a problem rule before they fixed it

Ah well.

-Hyp.

I don't like any situation that forces a character to carry some item, or that gives a major advantage to one style over another.

If there are only a few items that you can cut your way out of a creature with, you had better have one. This means all characters would have one of these items. Adventures are far more unique than that, as it should be. I prefer having options.

If memory serves, TWF in 2nd ed suffered from this. They always had the advantage, and if you didn't take that approach you made a bad choice. Shield AC was directional, only the way you are facing, so it wasn't very useful.

Now, you can make an argument for TWF vs 2-handed for damage. Shields also don't suffer from the facing problem, so that AC bonus is far more useful. I see all three styles as being far more balanced now than they were in previous editions. Now, it isn't stupid to choose 2-handed over TWF, and that is a good thing.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If there are only a few items that you can cut your way out of a creature with, you had better have one. This means all characters would have one of these items.

I've seen any number of monks who don't carry any weapons at all, or mages who just have a staff, or clerics who have morningstar and crossbow.

Not everyone carries a dagger, so even with piercing weapons allowed to cut their way out, not everyone can do it.

It's simply not something everyone takes into consideration.

As far as differentiation goes... how is "carry one of six different weapons" more restrictive than "only thieves' tools can open locks"?

As far as certain choices being better or worse than others... when was the last time you saw anyone in 3E choose to wear Splint or Banded mail?

-Hyp.

 

[Pax]

My point is that the 2-Handed weapon already does more damage and that I'm leaning towards the thought that the 1.5 x STR Mod is too much.

Not by much.

Compare the iconic one-handed sword: the Longsword. Before strength, it does 1d8 damage, for an average of 4.5hp.

The iconic two-handed sword is the Greatsword, which does 2d6 before strength, for an average of 7hp (and a bell-curve, which means average is MUCH more likely than very high or very low).

2.5hp more on average. Big whoop.

Balance that against loss of Shield bonusses to AC (and other places).

Now, compare the Greatsword to twinned Shortswords, or better, a Long-and-Short pair. 1d6+1d6 or 1d8+1d6. 7hp average between the paired shortswords, or, 8hp average between the long-and-short pair.

Especially with two-weapon fighting using matched, identical weapons ... look at the FURTHER effects of weapon specialisation (+2 per weapon).

I realize that Two-Weapon fighting would have to be tweaked also, if the rule I am speaking of is to be omitted. In fact I have been trying from time to time to come up with an alternate 2-weapon fighting system but have thus far been dissatisfied with my results next to the current system. (I plan on posting an excel sheet that interactively allows you to analyze the math stats of the fighting styles)

Personally, I think 2-weapon shoudl do 0.5 STR for both weapons, with a feat bringing it to 0.5/1.0, and a second feat bringing it to 1.0/1.0 ... and further, a 2Hand feat to bring that to 2.0STR ... all to balance the loss of shield AC bonusses, a not-insignificant tradeoff IMO.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

As far as differentiation goes... how is "carry one of six different weapons" more restrictive than "only thieves' tools can open locks"?

It makes sense that only thieves' tools (or improvised thieves tools) can pick locks. It doesn't make a lot of sense to say that an axe can cut a long slit in a purple worm's stomach (so the PC can get out) but a dagger can't. Axes are for hacking deep, but short holes. A dagger (or shortsword) would be the thing to use for drawing a long, slice to escape from.

As far as certain choices being better or worse than others... when was the last time you saw anyone in 3E choose to wear Splint or Banded mail?

Let me see, I've played with quite a few beginning paladins who wore splint mail and my cleric wore banded mail from level 2 to level 4. I've seen lots of NPCs wearing both too.

Of course, they are both inferior to full-plate in just about every way so, when the money is available, most characters switch to full plate (although I've also seen several switch to breastplates or mithral breastplates). As I see it, the starting amors of choice for characters who don't have much of a dex bonus are:

Initial:
Fighter/paladin, dex +0 and a cheap weapon: Splint Mail.
Fighter/paladin, dex +1 or an expensive weapon (like a greatsword) or Cleric: Chain Mail
Fighter/Paladin/Cleric with lots of nonarmor gear: Scale Mail.

Late Level 1-early level 3:
Fighter/Paladin/Cleric dex +0: Splint Mail
Fighter/Paladin/Cleric dex +1: Banded Mail

Late Level 2-level 3:
Fighter/Paladin/Cleric dex +0: Half-plate
Fighter/Paladin/Cleric dex +1: Banded Mail

Level 4+
Heavy Armor character, dex <+3: Full plate
Mobility not much of a concern; dex 16+: Breastplate (This choice is quite rare though since it's a suboptimal construction and doesn't gain much mobility advantage over fullplate from the point of AC lost or much protection advantage over a chain shirt for the mobility sacrificed).