SpikeyFreak
First Post
Don't forget rhino hide armor.
--Horned Spikey
--Horned Spikey
-
NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
Two hander style gets the axe shaft!
- Thread starter ashockney
- Start date
kreynolds
First Post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A bit more info...
Actually, I posted it four times, but you'll have to dig through the old posts to find it. Hehe, some really good threads back there too.
LOL By the way, I just noticed something really funny about this thread...
Ristamar said:
Actually, I posted it four times, but you'll have to dig through the old posts to find it. Hehe, some really good threads back there too.
LOL By the way, I just noticed something really funny about this thread...
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Will
First Post
TWF math
Someone emailed me having discovered my math was howlingly wrong. So, correction:
Assuming TWF & Ambidexterity, or Rapid Shot, and two attacks (+6/+1 - +9/+4) it's worth using the feats so long as AC is no more than primary bonus + 14. Primary bonus is the first attack bonus, so a character with 18 Str and BAB of +6/+1 would have a primary bonus of +10.
P = Primary attack bonus
The odds of a hit are: (20 - AC + P)/20
So AC 10, P of +6, odds are .8
The average damage of an attack is: (20 - AC + P)/20 x avg dmg roll
2 attacks, compared to 3 attacks with TWF/Ambidexterity or Rapid Shot
Interested in when the 2 attacks are better than the 3 attacks:
(avg dmg roll)(20 - AC + P)/20 + (avg dmg roll)(20 - AC + P - 5)/20 >
2(avg dmg roll)(20 - AC + P - 2)/20 + (avg dmg roll)(20 - AC + P - 7)/20
Since avg dmg roll is everywhere, as is 1/20, we can eliminate the factors.
(20 - AC + P) + (20 - AC + P - 5) > 2(20 - AC + P - 2) + (20 - AC + P - 7)
35 - 2AC + 2P > 49 - 3AC + 3P
AC - P > 14
AC > P + 14
IE: 2 attacks are better than 3 when AC is more than 14 above primary attack bonus. This is, granted, not going to happen a heck of a lot... but will happen sometimes.
This is more important for rogues and others with lower BAB.
For the curious, the same derivation can be worked out for single vs. double attacks.
20 - AC + P > 40 - 2AC + 2P - 4
AC > P + 16
And so on.
If my math is wrong, please let me know.
Someone emailed me having discovered my math was howlingly wrong. So, correction:
Assuming TWF & Ambidexterity, or Rapid Shot, and two attacks (+6/+1 - +9/+4) it's worth using the feats so long as AC is no more than primary bonus + 14. Primary bonus is the first attack bonus, so a character with 18 Str and BAB of +6/+1 would have a primary bonus of +10.
P = Primary attack bonus
The odds of a hit are: (20 - AC + P)/20
So AC 10, P of +6, odds are .8
The average damage of an attack is: (20 - AC + P)/20 x avg dmg roll
2 attacks, compared to 3 attacks with TWF/Ambidexterity or Rapid Shot
Interested in when the 2 attacks are better than the 3 attacks:
(avg dmg roll)(20 - AC + P)/20 + (avg dmg roll)(20 - AC + P - 5)/20 >
2(avg dmg roll)(20 - AC + P - 2)/20 + (avg dmg roll)(20 - AC + P - 7)/20
Since avg dmg roll is everywhere, as is 1/20, we can eliminate the factors.
(20 - AC + P) + (20 - AC + P - 5) > 2(20 - AC + P - 2) + (20 - AC + P - 7)
35 - 2AC + 2P > 49 - 3AC + 3P
AC - P > 14
AC > P + 14
IE: 2 attacks are better than 3 when AC is more than 14 above primary attack bonus. This is, granted, not going to happen a heck of a lot... but will happen sometimes.
This is more important for rogues and others with lower BAB.
For the curious, the same derivation can be worked out for single vs. double attacks.
20 - AC + P > 40 - 2AC + 2P - 4
AC > P + 16
And so on.
If my math is wrong, please let me know.
DrSpunj
Explorer
Re: TWF math
Glad to be of help to someone!
And Spikey! If you're reading this I figured out his error by using your Melee Calculator v22, but in doing so think I've found an error in your calculator!
When I entered Str 18, BAB of 5, Ambidexterity: Normal and Two-Weapon Fighting: Normal with 2W-2H I got 2 off-hand attacks in the table below; the first at +7 and the second at +2. The table below did not change when I went to Improved 2WF but did add a 3rd attack at -3 when I went to Greater 2WF. I did not change any of the other values except AC to do the calculations.
While I certainly could've screwed something up on my end, I wanted to tell you about it but you don't accept email here on the boards and you don't have an email contact on your webpage (that I could find at least). Am I doing something wrong?
Thanks!
DrSpunj
Will said:
Glad to be of help to someone!
And Spikey! If you're reading this I figured out his error by using your Melee Calculator v22, but in doing so think I've found an error in your calculator!
When I entered Str 18, BAB of 5, Ambidexterity: Normal and Two-Weapon Fighting: Normal with 2W-2H I got 2 off-hand attacks in the table below; the first at +7 and the second at +2. The table below did not change when I went to Improved 2WF but did add a 3rd attack at -3 when I went to Greater 2WF. I did not change any of the other values except AC to do the calculations.
While I certainly could've screwed something up on my end, I wanted to tell you about it but you don't accept email here on the boards and you don't have an email contact on your webpage (that I could find at least). Am I doing something wrong?
Thanks!
DrSpunj
Re
Personally, I have found that two weapon fighters seem to do less damage than two hander fighters for the majority of levels. It's nice that two weapon fighters can see a pay off at the higher levels.
Even right now, my barbarian wielding a Greatsword is doing much more damage than my buddies two weapon wielding fighter. He hits more often, and does substantially more damage.
Personally, I have found that two weapon fighters seem to do less damage than two hander fighters for the majority of levels. It's nice that two weapon fighters can see a pay off at the higher levels.
Even right now, my barbarian wielding a Greatsword is doing much more damage than my buddies two weapon wielding fighter. He hits more often, and does substantially more damage.
Will
First Post
Celtavian just nailed a very important point.
My previous calculations assume that the same weapon is being used in both cases.
The math is a little tricky, but if the choice is between using a weapon two handed and using weapons one handed... er, Celtavian's point thrashes the whole subject.
Basically, when you consider the difference between two handed damage, and even more two handed _weapons_, two weapon fighting does not fare very well at all.
I can't find any cases where you'd prefer to use lighter weapons for two weapon fighting than getting a greatsword, even if your strength bonus is 0.
Well, a few... and all entail situations where your attack bonus is 15 or so, and the target(s) AC is 12-18. That is, even in rather even areas, with two cases doing similar damage but a Str bonus above 0, you'd still rarely want to use two weapons.
Hmmm.
For bows and rapid shot, the situation is better, since you can always use any bow you get (no large vs. small issues like with two weapon fighting), and the damage is the same however you fire it.
My apologies for the confusion... my first approach to this was purely from the Rapid Shot direction, which is a 'cleaner' case.
My previous calculations assume that the same weapon is being used in both cases.
The math is a little tricky, but if the choice is between using a weapon two handed and using weapons one handed... er, Celtavian's point thrashes the whole subject.
Basically, when you consider the difference between two handed damage, and even more two handed _weapons_, two weapon fighting does not fare very well at all.
I can't find any cases where you'd prefer to use lighter weapons for two weapon fighting than getting a greatsword, even if your strength bonus is 0.
Well, a few... and all entail situations where your attack bonus is 15 or so, and the target(s) AC is 12-18. That is, even in rather even areas, with two cases doing similar damage but a Str bonus above 0, you'd still rarely want to use two weapons.
Hmmm.
For bows and rapid shot, the situation is better, since you can always use any bow you get (no large vs. small issues like with two weapon fighting), and the damage is the same however you fire it.
My apologies for the confusion... my first approach to this was purely from the Rapid Shot direction, which is a 'cleaner' case.
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