D&D General Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity

[Crimson Longinus]

Just wanted to quote this again, because, for the umpteenth time, THIS IS ALL WE WANT.

We don't want to rewrite anyone's game. We don't want to rewrite the entire orc description. We don't want any major, earth shattering change. We want to take the language, that even the most ardent critic admits does share similarities to, and excise that language from the game.

Just that. Only that.

You may want that. And I will agree with you. But some people want to do more as should be apparent if you have read the recent ork thread.

 

[Micah Sweet]

You may want that. And I will agree with you. But some people want to do more as should be apparent if you have read the recent ork thread.

Yeah, there are definitely folks that really want to go further. For the record, @Hussar, I have zero problem with the changes you seem to be in favor of.

 

[Hussar]

You may want that. And I will agree with you. But some people want to do more as should be apparent if you have read the recent ork thread.

Generally the people who are arguing for more extensive changes are the ones arguing that no changes should be made at all. There are a few arguing for extra changes, but, if you really follow who's arguing what, you'll see that the more expansive changes are generally being suggested by those who are arguing against any changes at all.

 

[Scott Christian]

Yeah, there are definitely folks that really want to go further. For the record, @Hussar, I have zero problem with the changes you seem to be in favor of.

No one has ever had a problem with what Hussar proposed. That was why it was weird to me that we have so many pages in these threads.

I don't want to get rid of race individuality in D&D, but I do want to get rid of it from the core rules. The core rules are for rules, and not lore. Campaign setting books will define what the races are in their world, like they already do, but it is explicitly the base rules to have the races be identified by setting, and not core rules.

So each lore book would have the races and their attribute/skills/innate abilities or a few of those things. Is that where the information would be? So the dark elves of one place may have different stat/skills/innate abilities from the dark elves of another place. I don't mind it. Sounds good. Would caste/wealth be in those descriptions as well?

I do think if they made the PHB like this, it overlooks the exact nature of D&D (one could say one of it's core elements): pre-existing lore that has not been changed (example: the gods are around); a base of knowledge inside the PHB that has always been there (darkvision); and the fact that D&D really is, despite all its fantastical elements, a very specific setting. Not sure that would sell well. Why don't you try writing it up. I'll read it. Who knows, you may be on to something.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Generally the people who are arguing for more extensive changes are the ones arguing that no changes should be made at all. There are a few arguing for extra changes, but, if you really follow who's arguing what, you'll see that the more expansive changes are generally being suggested by those who are arguing against any changes at all.

What?

 

[Micah Sweet]

What?

Yeah, I'm confused. Do the people you're talking about not know what they want?

 

[Hexmage-EN]

Personally I'm now considering a gnome conjurer PC who suspects that all in-setting lore concerning demons is tainted by anti-demon bias perpetuated by prejudiced conjurers. The tomes of demonology say all demons are Chaotic Evil and that they don't reproduce or have families, but why should he trust these accounts?

Despite never summoning a demon that didn't want to immediately kill him himself, he can't in good conscience extrapolate that all demons are Chaotic Evil. Maybe demon summoning spells only summon Chaotic Evil demons, perhaps as a form of anti-demon propaganda by those who could profit off of the invasion of the Abyss for its unique resources. Maybe these demons have families and are enraged that they've been magically separated from them.

Who knows for sure? How many people can say they've actually been to the Abyss themselves?

He's heard Orcus is Chaotic Evil, but according to who? Bigots with anti-demon prejudice?

His long-term goal is to embark on a lengthy expedition of the Abyss to learn about demons first hand, attempting best he can to resist the prejudiced anti-demon beliefs he's been exposed to all his life. He wants to learn the truth for himself and search the less documented layers of the Abyss for good demons.

Of particular interest to him is the 260th layer of the Abyss, "The Green Abyss", whose demon lord Alrunes is said to be a patron of protection and sisterhood.

 

[Eltab]

I suspect that, in practice, making new players buy PHB 1: Crunch plus PHB 2: Fluff in order to have everything needed to create a playable character, would prove to be a barrier to entry that would strangle the game. You accidentally price the starting set out of not-rich players' financial reach. Also very likely that a brand-new player would look at the Fluff book and be overwhelmed / confused by all the options.

I believe - based on RPGs' half-century of experience - that you must include a default setting in the core rulebooks, and it must be flavorful enough (read: has non-vanilla descriptions) to spark interest and create a "Wouldn't it be cool if...!" response from the reader / would-be buyer.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Personally I'm now considering a gnome conjurer PC who suspects that all in-setting lore concerning demons is tainted by anti-demon bias perpetuated by prejudiced conjurers. The tomes of demonology say all demons are Chaotic Evil and that they don't reproduce or have families, but why should he trust these accounts?

Despite never summoning a demon that didn't want to immediately kill him himself, he can't in good conscience extrapolate that all demons are Chaotic Evil. Maybe demon summoning spells only summon Chaotic Evil demons? Maybe these demons have families and are enraged that they've been magically separated from them?

He's heard Orcus is Chaotic Evil, but according to who? Bigots with anti-demon prejudice?

His long-term goal is to embark on a lengthy expedition of the Abyss to learn about demons first hand, attempting best he can to resist the prejudiced anti-demon beliefs he's been exposed to all his life. He wants to learn the truth for himself and search the less documented layers of the Abyss for good demons.

Of particular interest to him is the 260th layer of the Abyss, "The Green Abyss", whose demon lord Alrunes is said to be a patron of protection and sisterhood.

You are probably just joking but this sounds genuinely cool to me. I've been reading 'Kill Six Billion Demons' web comic which portrays hell as really multifaceted and interesting place. This reminds me of that.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

You are probably just joking but this sounds genuinely cool to me. I've been reading 'Kill Six Billion Demons' web comic which portrays hell as really multifaceted and interesting place. This reminds me of that.

Part of it is me taking the various arguments that you shouldn't have orcs and various other monsters be inherently evil and applying them to demons, who are often exempted from this consideration for reasons I find arbitrary. Whether this character's wildly unorthodox ideas regarding demons are true or not would be up to the DM of the campaign.

As for games I would run, I'm unsure how true or false I'd make these claims. Alrunes, demon lord of protection and sisterhood, is canon to D&D (at least as of 3.5). I need to see if there's any more official lore concerning her.