D&D General Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity

TheSword

Legend
I’m told they exist but I can’t name them. Do you think monolothocally evil orcs exist in any setting wotc setting?

Also you can prove a negative, by contradiction or exhaustive means, etc. but to be able to prove something you first need to take a stance on it.

taking a stance is something I notice you have a hard time doing in your posts.
I’m sorry to say it is practically impossible to prove a negative. It is not my responsibility to prove a setting doesn’t exist, it’s your responsibility to prove it does. Who are these people who told you about these WoC settings with monolithically evil orcs?

[Edit] Middle Earth is a 3pp setting. On that note if no one can even name a WOC setting with monolithically evil orcs, I’ll consider the ‘heritage’ argument for WOC supporting them dead in the water.
 
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Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
That's a very good point. I tend to avoid that language in general for exactly that reason, because it's hard to manage all the nuance needed to express the concept of people behaving monstrously.

That said, the greatest evil requires not just characterizing other people as monsters, but believing that monsters aren't people. And really, any kind of "those things aren't really people" will do it. Recognizing that the other people who are monsters are still people is very important.

Selectively denying that people are monsters only because they're like you, or part of your heritage, though, is a very important step towards being comfortable thinking that monsters aren't people. If you have to admit that "monsters" is a category which includes people you care about, you are going to be less comfortable with dismissing the humanity and rights of the "monsters".

These are good points! I would note the following:

1. The WOTC Statement on Diversity says as follows:
"Throughout the 50-year history of D&D, some of the peoples in the game—orcs and drow being two of the prime examples—have been characterized as monstrous and evil, using descriptions that are painfully reminiscent of how real-world ethnic groups have been and continue to be denigrated. That’s just not right, and it’s not something we believe in. Despite our conscious efforts to the contrary, we have allowed some of those old descriptions to reappear in the game. ...We present orcs and drow in a new light in two of our most recent books, Eberron: Rising from the Last War and Explorer's Guide to Wildemount. In those books, orcs and drow are just as morally and culturally complex as other peoples. We will continue that approach in future books, portraying all the peoples of D&D in relatable ways and making it clear that they are as free as humans to decide who they are and what they do."

It seems that the specific and problematic concerns raised about Orcs and Drow in D&D (and the antecedent roots as well), have been generalized to "all the peoples of D&D."

To put it another way, the specific issues regarding orcs and drow as reflecting racist/racial stereotypes (something which can arguably be extended to other cases, such as hobgoblins) is going to be corrected into a generalized "humanoids will have the same freedom of moral choice as humans do."


2. That said, the specific concern I think some people have is that within the fantasy genre, there is the idea/concept/tradition/what-have-you of evil beings. Not just undead, or demons, but beings that are by their very nature, evil. In a game with moral absolutes and absolute alignment, this would be the "magic makes them evil" or "their deity makes them evil" kind of humanoid. This is even more important when a game, like D&D, tends to have a lot of combat and/or death. Moral issues of "who is the real monster, those three kobolds in a trenchcoat trying to kill me, or me" probably are less interesting to some people than rolling initiative.


3. But but this comes back around to what you are saying, which is an old trope, and not just for humanoids- heck, think of the undead, and the original version of I Am Legend from 1954! The question of who is the real monster is one that occupies a fair amount of literature.


I appreciate the statement that has been made (especially with regard to depcitions of the Vistani, troublesome issues in Chult, etc.), but in the end I'm not sure this is going to make a huge difference at most tables right now? Those that play a more combat-intensive game will likely continue to need and use "cannon fodder," and those who want to incorporate more nuanced portrayals of humanoids probably already have!

Of course, moving forward for the next generation, it will have a much larger impact. And that's good. :)
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I’m sorry to say it is practically impossible to prove a negative. It is not my responsibility to prove a setting doesn’t exist, it’s your responsibility to prove it does. Who are these people who told you about these WoC settings with monolithically evil orcs?

[Edit] Middle Earth is a 3pp setting. On that note if no one can even name a WOC setting with monolithically evil orcs, I’ll consider the tradition argument for WOC supporting them dead in the water.

When you aren’t even willing to say whether you believe or don’t believe such a setting exists then it’s not even worth my time. I’ll go dig up an answer when you make up your mind. Till then it’s probably best i don’t interact much on this issue. I’d hate to make an offensive personal comment again.
 

Oofta

Legend
While they aren’t as directly animalistic as shifters, I see orcs as a very primal race.

So right off the bat, to me "primal" is just another way of saying "primitive and less developed". Basically

They’re extremely passionate and emotional; this can manifest as aggression or rage, but it’s just as strong when it comes to loyalty, affection and faith. They believe in things intensely. This led to them being the first druids on Khorvaire and having one of the oldest sects of the Silver Flame – the Ghaash’kala guardians of the Demon Wastes. But they’re also highly individualistic… leaning more towards chaos than law. They are very effective in small tribes or family groups, where they all know each other and are working together… but they aren’t good with faceless authority, blind obedience, or being part of a huge infrastructure. This is one of the main reasons the orcs never dominated Khorvaire. They are barbarians by nature. They have no innate desire to build vast cities or organize huge armies; the small tribe is what they are comfortable with. This led to their being pushed into the fringes of Khorvaire by the Dhakaani goblins, and that’s where this linger to this day. If the goblins are like ants or wasps, orcs are like wolves: fierce, loyal to their pack, but not inclined to form into a massive legion of wolves and conquer the world.

This changes the basic concept of orcs from the MM version. That's fine, but the base assumption is that orcs do want to conquer the world.

If "extremely passionate and emotional" were applied to real world people it would be considered racist.

In playing an orc – whether as a player or DM – I’d emphasize this primal and passionate nature. They feel emotions strongly, and are quick to anger but equally quick to celebrate. They believe things deeply, and can be very spiritual. As an orc, you’re loyal to your pack – whether that’s your family or your adventuring companions – and quick to distrust massive, faceless forces and invisible authority. This may seem at odds with the idea of strong faith, but they’re equally distrustful of monolithic organized religions. The Ghaash’kala are one of the oldest sects of the Silver Flame, but they operate in small clans and have never formed the sort of political hierarchy that you see in the Church of the Silver Flame. So as an orc, follow your heart; explore your faith; be true to your friends and suspicious of those who would tell you what to do."

"Primal and passionate" has racist overtones that have also been used do describe PoC, it's the whole "they're little more than animals so they can't help themselves" lie.

Having said that, I have no problem with this description of orcs. After all, it's helpful to have defining nature to any race or monster.

I'm just pointing out that if people want to see racism they can. I also don't see it as being any better - they still have monolithic tendencies and behaviors. They just aren't defined as evil.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Mod note:

Please do not make this personal. Address the logic and positions taken, not the person making them.

Agreed. I did that. My apologies. Certain posting style got to me. Best for me to ignore or not comment further unless that style changes. Thank you.
 

no idea. I’m told such settings exist and so I take that at face value unless someone wants to dispute that claim. Are you disputing this?

Yes. I’m told that no such settings exist, and I take that at face value unless you want to dispute that claim. If so, name the settings.
 

aco175

Legend
I do not think I played in a world where one race was universally one alignment. There was always a few examples that went against the stereotype. Elves are CG, dwarves LG, and orcs CE had always meant that the typical one was that alignment, but individuals could be something else. Player characters and NPCs were never held to the same alignment as their kin in games I played in.

I do find that generally orcs are monsters in games I played in and as monsters, they are meant to be defeated. Same with most things in the MM that isn't a pegasus or angel.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
On that note if no one can even name a WOC setting with monolithically evil orcs, I’ll consider the tradition argument for WOC supporting them dead in the water.
The need to make a change in something that doesn't exist would also be dead in the water. If there aren't any official settings with always evil orcs, there are no always evil orcs to change.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Yes. I’m told that no such settings exist, and I take that at face value unless you want to dispute that claim. If so, name the settings.

thanks. Since the issue is in dispute I will do some research and get back to you.

in the meantime, let’s assume you are correct. Doesn’t that mean that d&d is and always has been inclusive? Orcs aren’t always evil, they aren’t always dumb, etc. What actually needs changed about them?
 

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