D&D General Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity

Wanting to catch up on this thread about inclusion and inheritance of D&D?
Here's a summary:

-People talking about Racism and Orcs (about 70% of the thread)
-Devolves into glib comments and personal attacks (20%)
-Someone tries to bring it back on topic but not about orcs (5%)
-Discussion goes totally off-topic (5%)
- People start talking about orcs.

Do I have it right?

P.S: You are at the Glib comments portion of the thread
 
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Catulle

Hero
Wanting to catch up on this thread about inclusion and inheritance of D&D?
Here's a summary:

-People talking about Racism and Orcs (about 70% of the thread)
-Devolves into glib comments and personal attacks (20%)
-Someone tries to bring it back on topic but not about orcs (5%)
-Discussion goes totally off-topic (5%)
- People start talking about orcs.

Do I have it right?

P.S: You are at the Glib comments portion of the thread
Turns our our history's kinda racist
 

Hussar

Legend
That would have never been needed if everyone was from Quebec. ;)
But I do understand the need for one and it is a good thing that En World have one.

Given Quebec's recent treatment of minorities, I'm not sure I'd go there.

Not clear enough, otherwise this thread would not be needed.
The basic idea is there. What I am talking about is a rearrangement of the MM with a specific section for humanoids in which it is clearly stated that in some world X represent the norm but in different setting X can be a champion of good while Y is now a champion of evil. Or anything in between.

It's not a bad way to go frankly. Although, again, you really, really need to excise the racist adjacent language since that's probably the bigger issue. But, yeah, and, not only that, but also actually make it visible in products going forward. Let's have a sort of Reverse Dungeon Adventure Path where you're the inhabitants of a dungeon trying to defend your home from invaders who want to kill you and take your stuff.
 




Mercurius

Legend
Given Quebec's recent treatment of minorities, I'm not sure I'd go there.

It's not a bad way to go frankly. Although, again, you really, really need to excise the racist adjacent language since that's probably the bigger issue. But, yeah, and, not only that, but also actually make it visible in products going forward. Let's have a sort of Reverse Dungeon Adventure Path where you're the inhabitants of a dungeon trying to defend your home from invaders who want to kill you and take your stuff.

So a question--or challenge--for you. How would you re-work orcs to allow for the "brutal-savage-evil" type? Would you make them a sub-race? ("Gruumsh orcs"). And if so, how to portray their nature without the same language that you feel is racist-adjacent? Or if not a sub-race, but just "some orcs are like that," how would you do it? Would you just negate the issue entirely and generalize them to the point that no traits are assigned, essentially making them differently shaped humans that can be whatever the DM wants them to be? And would you apply it across the board, so that all humanoids are essentially just like humans in terms of the range of traits and cultures?

Part of the reason I ask is that one aspect of human vs. non-human in Fantasy Land--at least going back to Tolkien, but I think in the folklore--is the idea that humans are more diverse, they are the great "generalists," while non-humans are more specific, more formed around an archetype. Tolkien's elves, for instance, were essentially better versions of humans--more noble, artistic, intelligent, skilled, beautiful, etc--but also had something crucial lacking, perhaps the human capacity of self-determination. Thus you could talk about "elven nature" in a more specific way than "human nature." Orcs were the archetype of the twisted elf--a reversal of Iluvatar's most perfect creation. Dwarves were even more specific in that they were the creation of the crafter deity (Aule). Halflings were perhaps the most metaphorical race, in that Tolkien was obviously gently making fun of (an homage, really) his fellow English country-folk.

The point being, if we broaden each race in such a way that they become more human, they start losing their distinctness, their specificity. Furthermore, having non-human archetypes gives the freedom to explore various archetypes and What If questions without racializing it--if it is clearly understood that said non-human race is just that: not human. But if the point is to both de-racialize them (for those who make that connection) and bring them greater depth and complexity, how to do so without losing their distinctness? And if you use sub-races, wouldn't the same concern still apply or would the fact that "Gruumsh orcs" are one of many types negate the racial connotations?
 

Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer
The point being, if we broaden each race in such a way that they become more human, they start losing their distinctness, their specificity.
Is that a bad thing? I'm serious. Is it bad when the races lose the cultural/behavioural things that make them that race? Is it the end of D&D if this happens?

I believe it's not the end of D&D. Wildemount has good drow, good orcs, good gnolls, good goblinoids, and other more complex races. You can still have evil orcs, but not all orcs are evil, or brutal/savage. You can still have evil drow, but it's individual choices instead of a race being forced into a corner. You can still have evil groups of orcs or drow, as there are cults of Gruumsh and Lolth, but the whole race doesn't have to be overwhelmingly evil.

If you want to rework orcs in other settings, take inspiration from Eberron or Wildemount.

You don't need to ask the question "How do we rework orcs?" because it's already answered.
 

Mercurius

Legend
Is that a bad thing? I'm serious. Is it bad when the races lose the cultural/behavioural things that make them that race? Is it the end of D&D if this happens?

I believe it's not the end of D&D. Wildemount has good drow, good orcs, good gnolls, good goblinoids, and other more complex races. You can still have evil orcs, but not all orcs are evil, or brutal/savage. You can still have evil drow, but it's individual choices instead of a race being forced into a corner. You can still have evil groups of orcs or drow, as there are cults of Gruumsh and Lolth, but the whole race doesn't have to be overwhelmingly evil.

If you want to rework orcs in other settings, take inspiration from Eberron or Wildemount.

You don't need to ask the question "How do we rework orcs?" because it's already answered.

Of course its not the "end of D&D." Please don't make my perspective into something its not, otherwise you're not really talking to me, as an individual.

And it isn't so simple as good vs. evil. There have always been outliers. What about savagery in general? Wildness, brutality, violence?

I don't have the Eberron book handy (packed away for a move), but scanning the one page in the Wildemount book, and that's one approach. It says they still have tendencies towards violence and anger, however, but it mostly just avoids defining them. In a way, it relies upon what we already know about orcs but takes away the "evil by their nature" part. And yes, I do think they read more like a human ethnic group, which ironically connects them more strongly to real world ethnicities (if that's what we want to do), and we're still left with a somewhat angry and violent group.

But if that is enough for people to be happy, I think it really comes down to settings - and what fits the themes of that setting. If they republished Greyhawk, I'd hate to see them diverge too much from Gygax's vision. Meaning, Greyhawk should have Gygaxian orcs, not Mercerian or Bakerian orcs. FR can have its own orcs--and so too with every world. Let's not be monolithic, but allow creative diversity.

But in terms of the MM, it does make a statement about the default mode. How to depict that? "Orcs can be whatever you want them to be"...or do you go with examples of different types?
 

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