D&D General Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity

[dfuller1138]

Absolutely. Orcs have "evolved" since the LotR days.

Within the confines of D&D as a game, orcs are sapient. You're counter-argument is inaccurate as you are describing an organisation chasing someone. "Government" in this case refers to an organisation, not an individual person, much has likewise you would use 'The Mafia' to describe someone. This is irrelevant to the

Within Fiction, orcs are assigned motivations. Motivations that can be interpreted by the reader, however the reader likes. Every character in written works is assigned motivations. Quite different from "sapiency". Orcs are not sapient considering the proper definition of sapience. Use Merriam-Webster. Orcs are the "bad guys" among many who do "bad things" to others. Orcs are the trope.

Orcs can be DEPICTED as possessing sapience. It is a depiction only. The portrayal of orcs as is, is the actual objection. Sapience has nothing to do with that. Orcs, by definition, are not sapient. There may be the rare depiction or portrayal.

Depictions should not be confused with sapience. It is a very fine distinction.

Orcs have no more agency - and much less agency - than the depiction of govenrment. Orcs are represented by The DM, government is represented by actual people. Neither are sapient. Whatsoever. Depictions and portrayals aside.

High Orcs is a questionable thing when just regular orcs works fine. They exist, they're historically playable, why invent a new race? Well, uh, 3E did that a ton but, 3E is 3E. I question why "Invent a new race" is around when just bringing orcs to a better place is available

They still would be orcs. With culture and portrayals of sapience. And better armor, weapons, and assigned motivations. Perhaps. Basically, a human dressed in an orc skin. The only difference being appearance. What would be the difference between playing a High Orc Paladin and a Human Paladin? Appearances. Why bother playing the High Orc at all when a Human does just as well? The differences would be minor.

Thus no invention of a new race. The portrayal and desciptions would be the modifications. Been done plenty of times.

In the end, if Orcs have to be remediated? Devils & Fiends to. Beholders. Sahuagin. Tharizdun himself. Okay, maybe not Tharizdun. Remediate them all to satisfy REAL WORLD POLITICS. If it is good for orcs? Do the entire Monster Manual and all supplements the same way, with any monster that is portrayed as being capable of thought.

Personally, I think it would be interesting to have High Orcs. Since there is a Multi-verse after all. Perhaps the Humans would take the roll of traditional Orcs. I am sure someone would object to that to.

In the end, D&D is about Good vs. Evil. Too have evil, you have to have "bad guys". And "bad guys" do "bad things". And bad things are described. Could the descriptions of said "bad things" be more ah... circumspect? Sure. The "bad things" are still going to be there.

Arguing for the Rights of a Fictional Race in a Fantasy Game...

Does the portrayal of a fictional race (bad guys necessary for games) increase abusive behavior anymore than violent videogames produce children who are violent mass murderers?

We are now at the point of The PMRC and Elizabeth Dole being right, that D&D promotes abusive behavior (Satanism). This is an example of how far along The Left is in being the The New Right.

As to the original topic? There are limitations to inclusiveness. Changing orcs to fit some real world paradigm in order to reinforce real world behavior? IS NOT GOING TO DO IT. The expression of Heritage? That is evolving.

D&D is inherently objectionable on every level. Necromancy. Demons & Devils. Violence is integral to the game. Depictions of evil can not be anymore PC than Asmodeus being The Supreme Benevolent Being.

Otherwise, turn Dungeons & Dragons into Deliberations & Debates, Robert's Rules 6th Edition.

 

[dfuller1138]

I'm not sure if it's scientific objections that put it down, as opposed to the word having a variety of meanings, and the one science rightfully craps on is the one most commonly used today. Much of the below is probably not needed - but I thought it was interesting that one of the examples in the OED quotes Dragon Magazine (obviously too late to say why it's being used in D&D, but does give insight into which definition the OED folks think D&D is using).

Ah, etymology. Thanks for the post. Nice fact regarding D&D being used as an example.

 

[dfuller1138]

They're sapient beings capable of their own choices. They're not monsters and have been playable sapient races for years.

Blaming everything on deities is the literal worst counter-argument to this I've ever heard. You'll never complain about how dare someone play an evil elf or a whole bloody civilisation of naughty word elves, yet turning that around so orcs have variance and suddenly people tear their hair out at how dare I suggest such.

Monsters are made by their actions, not their race. Choices make you that.

Also, Kill the gods and shatter their thrones.

Speaking of, isn't the only canonical FR purely human-orientated god unquestionably evil (And also linked to Pelor, the Burning Hate)? C'mon. Apply it to everything. If orcs can't be good and have multi-layered things because they have an evil god, apply it to humans. See how far that gets you

Quite frankly, someone should make a Good Orc book. WotC gives plenty of guidance on that. Even 1st ed AD&D gave interpretation on how to create PC's from Monsters and such. If people are angry that Orcs are being stereotyped and encouraging REAL RACISM, then they should sit down and write the damn book. Instead of waiting for WotC to write it for them.

That's why D&D is classified as a "FANTASY GAME". Do what you want.

 

[dfuller1138]

Accent is one thing, going further into that. Because I sure have seen people just go full Scottish with their dwarves, to the degree of wearing kilts. Applying an accent though? Nothing wrong with that. Its when you go further into things from that

See, the funny thing in Warcraft is you could get an orc speaking like a corporate executive and make it justifiable. Russian accents? Also completely fine. This is because Warcraft makes big ol' varied groups of orcs. There aren't just Orcs, there's varied groups with varied histories. As such, making things more varied, believable, and less just 'all X are X' is the end goal.

As a FANTASY game... someone do the damn Netbook on Orcs. Just to get it off the table. Stop waiting for WotC. That is the beauty of FANTASY games... you can do what you want using the rules.

Cosplay is nothing new. Some players are enthusiastic. Good for them.

I've got a Goblin NPC pulling the strings on a bunch of PC's, as a mastermind that has the PCs believing he is some crime lord out to establish a larger crime empire. When the truth is, the committing of the "acts of crime" actually involve sabotage of evil organizations - who doesnh't like an arms shipment to a bunch of evil-doers that contains swords that shatter during use? I dont' think it helped that he arranged their incarceration on trumped-up charges just so he could "blackmail" them into his service. For which they are well rewarded. Though, they don't know about that part. Wait until they find out about the smuggling operation between the Drow of The Underdark & his organization, which they will be the negotiators setting up that operation.

But before that? I'm thinking of sending them to enlist in an Assassin's Guild just so they can infiltrate the Assassin's Guild to assassinate the Guild Master so that their Goblin Overlord can take over the Assassin's Guild.

All for good purposes in the end, which will be quite shocking to the PC's.

Right now, they are on their way to a keep to find out who is destroying their Goblin Overlord's supply wagons - which they know that their Goblin Overlord is overcharging on the gov't contract - which will involve the elimination of a rival merchant who is in league with the bandits attacking said Goblin Overlord's supply trains.

Later on, they will be running into some orcish mercenaries they will pay off - if the correct choices are made - to provide security for their detail. Which will certainly confuse the hell out of said PC's.

And never mind the Drow who is their supervisor. Who they now know is a Drow due to a slip-up in the application of a magical item used to conceal said identity.

The Cleric is certainly suspicous since she still can access her spells. Despite being accused of a serious crime, convicted, and imprisoned. Before a somewhat-of-a-pardon was arranged by said Goblin Overlord who framed her in the first place in order to employ her as a parollee (well paid).

I've got Drow. Orc mercenaries (if things go right). A Goblin Overlord. Several PC's. A criminal organization that is a money-making operation with the appearances of a criminal organization, PC's committing "crimes" that actually aid the kingdom (though they are not aware of it). The possible destruction of an Assassin's guild is all laid out - really a hostile takeover and repurposing. Underdark trade to insert the Drow supervisor back into Drow society (somewhat) with the PC's aiding and abetting.

Do the PC's know what is going on? The Players have their suspicions. All of them wrong. With the only inkling something is not quite right? The Cleric still receives her spells.

Now, the Isle of Dread OAR? Trade must be expanded.

Wait until I throw in the medusa (an informant), an evil dragon (a set up by the Goblin overlord in order to negotiate with the dragon for a book he needs), the recovery of a major religious artifact (the job involves telling the PC's that they are on a heist) - resulting in the rewarding of the Cleric, the pirate PC running a ship out to Isle of Dread to sack a temple all in the name of loot (disrupting a nefarious plot), and much... much more.

All while employing a mix of good- and evil-aligned PC's and NPC's (respectively) - because NPC's aren't stupid cannonfodder - to achieve what is in effect the creation of a massive merchant guild house & influence peddling machine run by a Goblin Overlord who has the best intentions of the kingdom and surroundings, at heart - and lots of gold to be made.

And just because of this thread? I might have the Orc mercenaries eventually become a crack strike team in the employ of said Goblin Overlord.

you know why? Because I'm the ************* DM and I can do that. Because it is a fantasy game with rules that allow me to do that. I don't have to wait for WotC to issue corrections.

 

[dfuller1138]

Wait, I'm honestly curious: is there a source for this in the D&D books stating that "good orcs are impossible?"

I dont' know. I subscribe to Rule Zero. As a DM, if I want somewhat good orcs? I'm going to reasonably justify it and insert them into my game. Perhaps and alignment shift.

And just because of this thread? I might have my PC's end up employing Orc mercenaries who (if they survive long enough) eventually become a crack strike team in the employ of a Goblin Overlord who is the employer of the PC's.

you know why? Because I'm the DM and I can do that. Because it is a fantasy game with rules that allow me to do that. I don't have to wait for WotC to issue corrections.

 

[Mercurius]

I dont' know. I subscribe to Rule Zero. As a DM, if I want somewhat good orcs? I'm going to reasonably justify it and insert them into my game. Perhaps and alignment shift.

And just because of this thread? I might have my PC's end up employing Orc mercenaries who (if they survive long enough) eventually become a crack strike team in the employ of a Goblin Overlord who is the employer of the PC's.

you know why? Because I'm the DM and I can do that. Because it is a fantasy game with rules that allow me to do that. I don't have to wait for WotC to issue corrections.

Yes, agreed! Lots of ways to, from the perspective of individual campaigns and DMs. It makes me think that it would be really interesting to see a compilation of different approaches to orcs that DMs have taken in their campaigns. Open it up to the community, so to speak.

 

[Hussar]

I'm rather baffled by how much people think that we want to change. The only thing that people have ACTUALLY said that should change is the removal of the mirroring language. No one ever suggested that orcs should be good. No one ever suggested 99% of the things people are arguing against here.

The changes needed are very minor and, if they weren't pointed out, most people wouldn't even notice that they'd been changed.

 

[Lanefan]

To the point of MONSTERS!!!But, what about Tieflings? Devils are definitely monsters. So, the defense works right?

Except, what is the lore about Tielfings? In both 5e and 4e it is the same story "Their appearance and their nature is not their fault, but the result of an ancient sin, for which they, and their children and their children's children will always be held accountable."

So, Tieflings are literally the "The sins of the Father." Their ancestors committed a crime, so now they must be discriminated and punished for it, thousands of years later. And, most people agree that is naughty word reasoning for discrimination. And yet, the standard lore tells me that I must engage with it. If I am to take the story of Tieflings as presented, I must have my NPCS shun and discriminate a group of people for their ancestor's crimes.

And again, I don't want that. And other people don't want that.

Some of us don't want Tieflings at all and would be happier had they never been made playable as PCs. (ditto "Half-Demons" from pre-Tiefling editions)

Moradin is Lawful Good. Corellan is Chaotic Good. Garl Glittergold is Chaotic Good.

Can you have a clan of evil dwarves?
An Elven Lich out to destroy the world?
Gnome crime cartel?

Those races were made by the gods, very closely steeped in their traditions. Yet, I do not believe that anyone would really blink thrice at a villainous version of them.

But good orcs are impossible because Gruumsh made them evil?

Yes.

Why? Because Dwarves, Elves and Gnomes each have more than just one deity; and some of those deities ain't so nice; and because some members of those cultures follow those not-so-nice deities.

Orcs, however, only have one deity because - in divine-level reflection of the might-makes-right ethos of general Orcish society - Gruumsh killed and ate all the others. Seems simple enough from here...

 

[reelo]

I'm rather baffled by how much people think that we want to change. The only thing that people have ACTUALLY said that should change is the removal of the mirroring language. No one ever suggested that orcs should be good. No one ever suggested 99% of the things people are arguing against here.

The changes needed are very minor and, if they weren't pointed out, most people wouldn't even notice that they'd been changed.

Ok then, how do you describe a warlike race of savage brutes without using the words warlike, race, savage, and brutes? Is it just a matter of opening a thesaurus and looking for different words? I'm serious here, I'm all for more social justice and inclusivity, but I also like my fantasy tropey and old-school.

 

[Hussar]

Orcs, however, only have one deity because - in divine-level reflection of the might-makes-right ethos of general Orcish society - Gruumsh killed and ate all the others. Seems simple enough from here...

That's not true in D&D. There are multiple orcish gods besides Gruumsh. Luthic, Ilneval and a few others. That's true in Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms.

Ok then, how do you describe a warlike race of savage brutes without using the words warlike, race, savage, and brutes? Is it just a matter of opening a thesaurus and looking for different words? I'm serious here, I'm all for more social justice and inclusivity, but I also like my fantasy tropey and old-school

Well, this has been asked and answered repeatedly in this thread, but, sure, I'll play again.

See, warlike, savage and brutal are all fine. There's nothing wrong there. That's not the language that's the problem. So, you're already done.

What is problematic is half-orcs make better orcs than orcs. Pair an elf with a human and you get the best of both worlds. Pair a human with an orc, and you get a smarter, nastier orc. That's right out of the PHB.

Then you have;

Orc Crossbreeds - Luthic ,the orc goddes of fertillity... demands that orcs procreate often and indiscriminately. The orc's drive to reproduce runs stronger than any other humanoid.. and they readily crossbreed with other races.

Does that really need to be there?