D&D General Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity

[Chaosmancer]

So now, @Curmudjinn and @Chaosmancer , you've (re-)found the solution that works for the majority of folks, or all except those who are intractable on either side of "keep everything exactly the same" or "get rid of everything that someone finds offensive."

Voila, thread goal accomplished!

And yet people are still arguing against it, even though we have said from the beginning we just want more nuance and complexity added to orcs

 

[Mercurius]

And yet people are still arguing against it, even though we have said from the beginning we just want more nuance and complexity added to orcs

Who is this "we?" There are many people, with different takes.

This isn't two sides, but more of a spectrum, with extremes on either side.

Hussar and I came to a similar meeting place ("Big Tent") as you two several dozen pages ago. A lot of the disagreements have to do with finer points, both in terms of interpretation and implications that will result from how things are depicted. But I think if we can strengthen the Big Tent approach, maybe people will realize that the finer points aren't as much of an issue.

 

[Hussar]

In my experience, the more vehemently two "sides" are arguing, the closer they are on most issues. It's always very healthy to pull back, from time to time, and look at the bigger picture. I mean, pretty much everyone in the thread has agreed that minor language changes are fine and acceptable.

A lot of it comes down to people arguing which Smurf is more blue.

 

[Remathilis]

So for everyone who has been saying Orcs always being mindless killers in D&D, I present to you the Ondonti...

The members of the race known as the ondonti are dose cousins to the orc. However, the ondonti live as peaceful fanners and gathers, taking only what they need from the land to survive. In outward appearance, they resemble orcs, but they speak the common tongue and knowledge of the orc language is rare among them.
...
In the world of Toril, ondontis dwell north of The Ride, in a secluded part of the Tortured Lands. They revere Eldath, the Goddess of Peace and Quiet Places, and their culture attempts to embody the pacifist teachings of that deity.

There: a canonical LG pacifist orc population that existed in Faerun during 2nd edition. They are rare, but I think they can be expanded upon enough to become a PC option.

 

[Faraer]

In these discussions I don't recall reading much explanation of why, as well as avoiding descriptions tainted by racism and colonialism, it's better to make orcs more like morally diverse people rather than more absolutely monsters. One reason, I see, is that there's long been a cultural trend towards psychological realism in fantasy, 'monsters are people too' and liking to play monsters as PCs. But the Wizards statement doesn't explain why more moral and cultural complexity is the solution.

 

[Remathilis]

We live in the day and age of Warcraft. People want to play orcs and there's sufficient demand out there that they should be a main race, and freely open to play.

If that's the case, I want my playable Vampire race RIGHT NOW in the PHB!

 

[Mecheon]

If that's the case, I want my playable Vampire race RIGHT NOW in the PHB!

That's what Dhampyrs/Vryloka fill and they'd be an easy fit in, given Shifters are the playable werewolves and all

 

[Umbran]

A lot of it comes down to people arguing which Smurf is more blue.

That is very clearly Brainy Smurf, and anyone telling you otherwise has an agenda!

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Because they're orcs?

But orcs don't have this in negative in 2 of the few 5e settings, so why shouldn't stupid monster orcs be a variant, and people orcs be the main type?

There's the problem: orcs are not (and IMO shouldn't be) a "main race" and freely open to play as PCs.

Also, while you focus on the -2 Int you're conveniently forgetting the bonuses they get on other stats. Giving a bonus without a corresponding penalty only serves to one or both of a) unbalance things and b) add to power creep.

So what? Every other race (except kobolds) gets at least a +2 to an ability score and a +1 to another ability score with no negatives.
Orcs from Volo's are one of the worst races in 5e.

 

[Eric V]

In 2020, the default lore of a game should be inclusive and not smack of language that is insanely similar to how some people referred to other people they were oppressing/enslaving/categorizing as not people. That's just basic human decency.

If you and your group happen to like non-inclusive stuff and that kind of language and depiction, YOU add them in. It's beyond bizarre that the base game, meant to be consumed by the general public, should HAVE to have non-inclusive elements in it. In 2020. Jeez....