Two-Weapon fighting and the Monk

[CommJunkee]

I didn't see where this was addressed specificly in a title, so...

The answer is probably staring me right in the face, but at this time I'm blind to it. I have a PC who is asking what the effect of taking 2-Weapon Fighting will do. He is playing a 6lvl Monk and exclusively uses unarmed attacks. Normally 2-weapon fighting would allow any other class to attempt 2 unarmed strikes at -4 Pri -8 Off (right?).

Now a Monk gets Flurry of Blows, and the way I read it is not dissimilar to 2-Weapon Fighting only it is used by Monks using thier specialized weapons. Now would taking the feat add an additional attack to Flurry of Blows or what? Would it even be useful or is it a waste of a feat for the Monk in question.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk fighting unarmed.

Says it right in the PHB. Don't let the FAQ confuse you.

 

[Christian]

I agree 100% with Patryn, both on the RAW and, in this case and as a general rule, not paying too much attention to the FAQ. That said, the FAQ ruling is a perfectly reasonable house rule, not in any way unbalancing. (In fact, I think that the FAQ even [for a change] admits that this would be a house rule, at least when applied to purely unarmed combat.) So, my advice would be to let him combine flurry & TWF for two extra unarmed attacks per round, all at -4 to hit and with one attack doing only half his Strength bonus in damage (again, as a house rule).

 

[MoonZar]

Patryn is right the phb is clear about that, tell your playing to use the monk ability Furry of blow to do more attack each round with penalty, this almost the same thing...

 

[youspoonybard]

Or your monk could take the penalty and wield a kama with her off hand, flurry with her kicks or her other fist, and make the TWF attack with her kama. I think that's pretty clearly spelled out in the rules.

 

[UltimaGabe]

There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk fighting unarmed.

Says it right in the PHB. Don't let the FAQ confuse you.

Yet, in this case, unlike many others, the FAQ is very clear. Two-Weapon Fighting and Flurry of Blows ARE compatible, with all of the advantages and disadvantages that come with both. Simply saying, "The FAQ is wrong!" is quite a narrow-minded statement, considering this happens to be one of the few well-thought-out and reasonable answers. When Flurrying, a Monk takes no penalty to damage for attacking with an "off-hand"- however, saying that this applies to all other feats and abilities isn't reasonable, especially when it's been clarified by the FAQ. After all, what's the point of a FAQ if not to answer questions?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Yet, in this case, unlike many others, the FAQ is very clearly wrong.

I fixed that for you.

Two-Weapon Fighting and Flurry of Blows ARE compatible, with all of the advantages and disadvantages that come with both. Simply saying, "The FAQ is wrong!" is quite a narrow-minded statement, considering this happens to be one of the few well-thought-out and reasonable answers.

And yet, in the PHB, it says "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk fighting unarmed."

The FAQ is not Errata. It is not "Core." Therefore, anything it says that contradicts Core is wrong - or a house rule. Unfortunately, the FAQ isn't smart enough to call out when, exactly, it's making up house rules.

It may, in fact, be a really nice, well-thought out, balanced house rule. But it is a house rule.

 

[Ranger REG]

Well, strictly interpreting, if you are fighting unarmed (no weapon in both hands, merely fists and other appendages you can strike), then two-weapon fighting would not apply.

But if fighting with two weapons -- or one weapon and one unarmed strike -- I don't see how you can forbid two-weapon fighting, with the exception of Rule 0. And if the weapon(s) happens to be [a] special monk weapon(s), then you can apply both benefits, just as long you apply the penalties as well.

AFAIC, they can stack either way. If in your opinion, you consider it my houseruling, so be it. It's not like I'm an active member of RPGA and only plays in tournaments.

 

[Christian]

The FAQ is not Errata. It is not "Core." Therefore, anything it says that contradicts Core is wrong - or a house rule. Unfortunately, the FAQ isn't smart enough to call out when, exactly, it's making up house rules.

OK, I don't have the FAQ in front of me, and the dastardly villains in my company's IT department have seen to block wizards.com, but ... unless I recall very poorly, I believe that in this particular instance the FAQ author was quite clear that this was a house rule. The FAQ ruling about flurry of blows combining with TWF was specifically limited to off-hand special monk weapons; the reference to unarmed off-hand attacks was in a parenthetical aside, something like, "there's really no compelling reason not to allow monks attacking unarmed to do this too, if you want."

Which is not to say that the FAQ has never done this, of course ...

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

OK, I don't have the FAQ in front of me, and the dastardly villains in my company's IT department have seen to block wizards.com

Those cads!

but ... unless I recall very poorly, I believe that in this particular instance the FAQ author was quite clear that this was a house rule.

Well ...

The description of the flurry of blows ability says there’s no such thing as a monk attacking with an off-hand weapon during a flurry of blows. What does that mean, exactly? Can the monk make off-hand attacks in addition to flurry attacks?

Actually, the text to which you refer appears in the entry for unarmed strikes. When a monk uses his unarmed strike ability, she does not suffer any penalty for an off-hand attack, even when she has her hands full and is attacking with knees and elbows, using the flurry of blows ability to make extra attacks, or both.

Good so far ...

The rules don’t come right out and say that a monk can’t use an unarmed strike for an off-hand strike (although the exact wording of the unarmed strike ability suggests otherwise), and no compelling reason why a monk could not do so exists. When using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, the monk suffers all the usual attack penalties from two-weapon fighting (see Table 8–10 in the Player’s Handbook) and the monk adds only half her Strength bonus (if any) to damage if the off-hand unarmed strike hits.

And, there's the problem.

"The rules don't come right out and say that a monk can't use an unarmed strike for an off-hand strike..."

Except, of course, they actually say, "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed."

The FAQ ruling about flurry of blows combining with TWF was specifically limited to off-hand special monk weapons;

Actually, it wasn't:

To add an off-hand attack to a flurry of blows, stack whatever two-weapon penalty the monk has with the penalty (if any) from the flurry. Attacks from the flurry have the monk’s
full damage bonus from Strength, but the off-hand attack gains only half Strength bonus to damage. If the off-hand attack is a weapon, that weapon isn’t available for use in the flurry (if it can be used in a flurry at all, see the previous question).