Two Weapon Fighting with Greatsword and Armor Spikes?

[Hypersmurf]

I don't really see how that works. Are you suddenly not wielding the greatsword in both hands? If you're using a non-light weapon in both hands, you get 1.5x your Str bonus to damage, x2 Power Attack, and +4 to Sunder/Disarm. You're not suddenly holding it with one hand just because you use an extra attack. It's a simple a+b=c deal. You have a two-handed weapon + you're wielding it in two hands = you get all the benefits of doing so.

Absolutely and exactly.

When I said "If you allow it", I meant "Greatsword + Armor Spikes". I don't allow it.

If you have a greatsword and armor spikes, you'll get your 1.5. But you won't get an extra attack with the spikes.

-Hyp.

 

[Diirk]

It suggests to me that both an off-hand attack and a weapon used in the off-hand should apply half Str bonus to damage.

Being flat-footed and running both deny you your Dex bonus to AC, but that doesn't meant that flat-footed and running are synonymous.

-Hyp.

Thats a really horrible analogy, but I somewhat expected something like that.

Its of course possible to claim that they are seperate rules. The combat chapter details how anything held in the offhand does half str bonus to damage, while page 8 describes how any offhand attack does half str bonus to damage. By themselves neither give the complete rule, and without referencing each other they expect you to find them both by yourself. Its certainly possible.

However, it seems infinitely more likely that the glossary definition, the combat chapter reference and page 8 were all intended to mean the same thing, given that the rules they express are all the same with only a minor variation on wording. This is also somewhat suggested by the fact that if offhand attacks and attacks with weapons in the offhand are in fact different, and that armour spikes don't give you extra attacks with TWF, then there is absolutely no reason to use them as offhand attacks rather than regular attacks.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Its of course possible to claim that they are seperate rules. The combat chapter details how anything held in the offhand does half str bonus to damage, while page 8 describes how any offhand attack does half str bonus to damage. By themselves neither give the complete rule, and without referencing each other they expect you to find them both by yourself.

It's not the first time this has happened, even for Str bonus to damage.

For example, the Combat Basics page (p135) tells us that a weapon wielded in two hands adds 1.5x Str bonus to damage. The Damage section (p134) tells us that a weapon wielded in two hands adds 1.5x Str bonus to damage, but not if it's a light weapon. The Equipment chapter p113 tells us that a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands adds 1.5x Str bonus to damage, and that a two-handed weapon adds 1.5x Str bonus to damage.

Looking in just the Damage section, for example, doesn't tell us everything.

This is also somewhat suggested by the fact that if offhand attacks and attacks with weapons in the offhand are in fact different, and that armour spikes don't give you extra attacks with TWF, then there is absolutely no reason to use them as offhand attacks rather than regular attacks.

Which is why I allow armor spikes to give extra attacks with TWF (as long as both hands are not already attacking with weapon(s), be it a single two-handed weapon or two weapons), in spite of them not being a second weapon wielded in the off-hand.

-Hyp.

 

[fafhrd]

Sure there is.

PHB p110: "Your character can be right- or left-handed."

Definition of off-hand, PHB p311: "A character's weaker or less-dexterous hand (usually the left)."

Off Hand, Off-Hand Weapon: When attacking with two weapons, the character must designate one of his hands as his off hand; the weapon held in that hand is treated as his off-hand weapon. The game rules don’t really care about whether you’re right-handed or left-handed, and it’s even OK to change your off hand designation from one round to the next.

link

<smashes head against desk>

 

[Hypersmurf]

<smashes head against desk>

Well, yeah. I was quoting from the rules of the game, not the Rules of the Game.

-Hyp.

 

[DogBackward]

Well, I've been re-reading a few things. And while I still believe that it would be logically and realistically possible to use TWF with a greatsword and armor spikes, I think Hypersmurf is actually right on the RAW aspect of it. Although it does still seem rather vague, I guess it could be read both ways. From the description of armor spikes:

"You can't also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa."

This all depends on whether or not you consider attacking with a weapon in both hands as also attacking with an off-hand weapon. It seems like it'd amount to about the same thing, to me, as you're using your off-hand the same either way. Just up to individual interpretation, I guess.

I still personally think it makes sense to allow it, realistically. Like my earlier example of following up a greatsword attack with a shoulder-rush. Very much a DM call, though.